Does anyone know of any books, websites, passenger ship records regarding Italians immigrating to Mexico say during the late 1500's to early 1800's? I've checked out the Archivos Espanoles En Red website: http://aer.mcu.es/sgae/index_aer.jsp to see if I could find my Italian ancestors who settled in Mexico, via Spain, but have come up with a big zero. I have a copy of the book " La Emigracion Castellana y Leonesa al Nuevo Mundo 1517-1700" by Maria del Carmen Martinez Martinez and nothing in there as well.
The surnames involved are Lomellin, Lomelli (Carlos Lomellini about 1600, children and grandchildren in Nochistlan, Zacatecas) and Durazzo around Hermosillo, San Miguel de Horcasitas, Sonora in the late 1700's to early 1800's.
Thanks
Rose
Fresno, CA
I am compiling the geneaological data on the lomelini from Italy to the branch that went to spain. It is a lot of material that I am going through and won't be finished until the end of the summer 09 .I will include pictures. I have compiled hidalgo's genealogical tree and traced his 2 lomeli lines. He descends from both lomeli brothers carlos and luis.
R.A.Ricci
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Hello R.A.Ricci
I am very interested in the Lomelini branch. May I get some of the
information that you have.
I have information until Carlos Lomelini, may you share the information from
his parents,gp and ggp of Carlos, and if when you finish your research are
you going to make some publication? I would love to get it.
Juan Cristobal Villalobos Lomelin
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de R.A.Ricci
Enviado el: Domingo, 15 de Febrero de 2009 06:05 p.m.
Para: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] lomelini
I am compiling the geneaological data on the lomelini from Italy to the
branch that went to spain. It is a lot of material that I am going through
and won't be finished until the end of the summer 09 .I will include
pictures. I have compiled hidalgo's genealogical tree and traced his 2
lomeli lines. He descends from both lomeli brothers carlos and luis.
R
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Hello juan Cristobal,
I am sorry that I never finished the book in 2009 like I promised but I have continued to gather information on the Lomellini family. I have posted some of what I have found in another post here in nuestro ranchos. I still have not finished the book but will continue to post bits and pieces online with an eventual book tying everything together.
I would appreciate people from nuestro ranchos sending me your Lomeli lines with written permission to add to our Lomeli book. Even though I am writing this book, it is not my book, it is our book as it is being done with contributions by many people, especially members of nuestro ranchos.
R.A.Ricci
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my mom's dna test said that 9% of her dna is from italy/greece.
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Most Mexicans that take the Ancestry.com DNA test show to have 6%-15% of their autosomal DNA to be from Italy/Greece. It is not proof of an Italian ancestor for most Mexicans in the past 15 generations. It exists mostly because over the past 50,000 years as people migrated from Eurasia and the Middle East to Iberia they passed through Italy. Many of the SNP markers that ended up in Italy also ended up in Iberia before the Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) went to Mexico. Since those autosomal SNP markers are more abundant in Italy than in Iberia they are labeled as being Italian/Greek. Since Italy and Greece has a long history of mixing they have many of the same autosomal SNP markers.
If you upload the raw DNA file to www.Gedmatch.com then go to the Admixture option then choose Eurogenes then choose K36 it a result similar to the Ancestry results will be printed out. Then if you do that for everyone that shows up as a match to your mother you will see that they will also have an
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thanks for explaining that. i'm thinking my momo's 3% mali heirtage maybe came from her ancestors in spain possibly.
is there a way tp figure out what tribes one's native ancestors came from?
ancestry dna tested her for 33% native(odd nubmer huh?)
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There is no way to know for sure if the 3% Mali is from your Spanish ancestors or a mulato ancestor. The only thing I can tell you is if your mother's results are a lot or a little different compared to some other people if you run your mother's raw DNA file through a program called DIY Dodecad 2.1 Wrapper at http://www.y-str.org/2013/07/diy-dodecad-21-wrapper.html
No, there is no way to figure out which tribes one's native ancestors came from. The Spanish had native tribes help them in their conquest of Mexico so all of the tribes have mixed over the past 500 years. If they were to ever do published DNA studies of different groups in Mexico, apart from the Mayans, and release the raw DNA then they could probably find autosomal DNA markers that are more common in certain regions. That hasn't been done though, at least that I know of. There have been studies of native groups in Mexico but I don't think the raw DNA files were released.
33% isn't really odd since DNA does something
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yeah i don't think either of my mom's parents were pure spanish, and yes sometimes the records weren't always accurate. i've seen plenty of inconstancies in racial classification in records. heck i've seen people get calssified as one thing in a baptism record and labeled something else in a marriage or death record.
sometimes welathy 'mixed' people were considered 'espanol'. for example if the pedro cid who married maria carrillo is the same one who's mentioned in miguel's will, he would have been at least 1/4th native, maybe even half native(if my suspicions about miguel's sister maria cid's dad being a tribe leader of some sort: maybe guachichil,caxcan, or zacatecos).
i did hear though that dna doesn't always pass down evenly (hence why full siblings could get slightly different results), and that you may not inherit genes from all your ancestors.
the reason why i wondered if one could figure out what tribes their ancestors were from dna tests, because my mom and her parents had
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Almost all Mexicans that have more than 4 generations in Mexicans have some native ancestry so you are correct in believing neither of your mother's parents were pure Spanish. It would be foolish to believe they were even without the inconsistencies most of us have seen.
That is correct, DNA does not pass down evenly because of the recombination I mentioned in my previous post. You get 50% of your DNA from your mother but it isn't an exact 50% of her 100% because of recombination. For example, since she was 33% NA you could be 18% or 14% NA. Apart from that the way Ancestry.com, 23andme, and FTDNA do the calculations causes results to be more different between siblings than the way Geno 2.0, Dodecad, and Eurogenes do the primary calculations. The secondary calculation by Geno 2.0 and the Oracle result with Eurogenes can cause the results to be more different between siblings, just like Ancestry.com, 23andme, and FTDNA. This is due to the secondary stage of the calculators trying to
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Rose,
I have a Carlos Lomelin born about 1584 in Genova, Genova, Italy and married to a Maria Benavides in about 1609, Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico. They had one daughter named Juana Lomelin who married Francisco Gutierrez Rubio about 1651, in Nochistlan, Zacatecas. Francisco was born about 1610 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco.
Maria Elena Gutierrez-Uhlenburg (Sacramento, CA)
fuccifeet@sbcglobal.net
Rose Hardy wrote:
Does anyone know of any books, websites, passenger ship records regarding Italians immigrating to Mexico say during the late 1500's to early 1800's? I've checked out the Archivos Espanoles En Red website: http://aer.mcu.es/sgae/index_aer.jsp to see if I could find my Italian ancestors who settled in Mexico, via Spain, but have come up with a big zero. I have a copy of the book " La Emigracion Castellana y Leonesa al Nuevo Mundo 1517-1700" by Maria del Carmen Martinez Martinez and nothing in there as well.
The surnames involved are Lomellin, Lomelli (Carlos
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Maria
I am related through Carlos' and Maria Benavides son, Domingo and his son
Nicolas:
Lomelin, Nicolas
The son of Domingo Lomelin and Juana de Mendoza. He was baptized 27 July
1656 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas. He married Juana de Alba, the daughter of
Marcos de Pedrosa and Maria de Nava on 5 February 1682 in Santa Maria de los
Lagos, Jalisco. He died 18 November 1693 in Santa Maria de los Lagos,
Jalisco.
Lomelin, Matiana
The daughter of Nicolas Lomelin and Juana de Alba (Pedrosa). She was
baptized 30 October 1683 in Santa Maria de los Lagos, Jalisco. She married
Joseph Romo de Vivar, the son of Pedro Romo de Vivar and Lorenza Ruiz de
Esparza on 15 February 1699 in Santa Maria de los Lagos, Jalisco.
This is my relation:
Carlos Lomelin>Domingo Lomelin>Nicolas Lomelin>Mathiana de Lomellin>Maria
Basilia Romo>Joseph Manuel Gonzales De Hermosillo>Thadeo Xaimes
(Jaymes)>Joaquin Jayme>Maria de la Cruz Jayme>Maria Antonia Ortiz> Francisca
Pisana>Maria Nieves Munis>Romanita
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Rose,
Here is a quote from the prologue by Mariano Gonzalez Leal in the book, Los Duran de Nochistlan.
" Tambien hubo en Nochistlán, sangre Genovesa, como la de los Lavezzari-aqui conocidos por Lavezares, de quienes atrás hemos hablado-y la de los Lomellini -aqui reputados Lomelines-, Carlos de Lomelin, a quien en la Relacion del siglo XVII se le hace, curiosamente, español de los Reinos de Genova, procedia de una de las siete Casas Nobles de Génova, y fue estanciero próspero en Mexticacán. Establecido alli por 1624, casó con doña Maria de Benavides, descendiente del viejo linaje Nochistlense de ese apellido, habiendo nacido de alli cinco vástagos: Gaspar, Carlos, Juana, Domingo y Maria.
Juana casó en Nochistlán el 12 de Septiembre de 1621 con Rodrigo de Carbajal y Ulloa; y viuda, pasó a segundas nupcias con el Jalostitlense Don Francisco Gutiérrez de Hermosillo, hijo del capitán Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y de Doña Leonor de Hermosillo. Por estas vias, gran parte de
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Hi Rose,
I too descend from Carlos Lomellini through two of Juana Lomelin's
daughters. I also descend from Magdalena de Lavezares and have the same
interest you do in learning about Italians in Mexico. I have found
references to these lines in Mariano Gonzalez-Leal's book "Retoños de España
en la Nueva Galicia" Tomo II. There are also chapters In Jose Luis
Vazquez's book on Genealogia de Nochistlan that trace the Lomellini's and
the Lavezares descendancy.
I would be happy to exchange data with you. Please e-mail me directly.
Maria Cortez
Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Italians in Mexico
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Message-ID: 20060715170039.42643.qmail@web81614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Rose,
>
> Here is a quote from the prologue by Mariano Gonzalez Leal in the book,
> Los Duran de Nochistlan.
>
> " Tambien hubo en Nochistl?n, sangre
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Hi Maria
I have Jose Luis' book also and am looking for the information linking Italy
to Mexico. I did find an Italian Mexican website a few weeks ago. But I'm
looking for older data.
Rose
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Maria, I been stuck on my mother's Lomeli line. I can trace back to 1849 Mexticacan. This is when Jacinto de Lomeli married Maria Onofre Gomez.
I'd love to see your gedcom on the website, so I may search for missing links.
My gedcom is online.
Enrique Legaspi Frias
Maria Cortez wrote:
Hi Rose,
I too descend from Carlos Lomellini through two of Juana Lomelin's
daughters. I also descend from Magdalena de Lavezares and have the same
interest you do in learning about Italians in Mexico. I have found
references to these lines in Mariano Gonzalez-Leal's book "Retoños de España
en la Nueva Galicia" Tomo II. There are also chapters In Jose Luis
Vazquez's book on Genealogia de Nochistlan that trace the Lomellini's and
the Lavezares descendancy.
I would be happy to exchange data with you. Please e-mail me directly.
Maria Cortez
Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alicia Carrillo
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Italians in Mexico
> To: research
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Rose,
I have done the same thing you have--looked at the AER for a ship passenger
record and found nothing. I concluded that my ancestors must have sailed
out of the Porto di Genova which was one of the major ports in medieval
times. I have not been able to find out if any records exist for that
port. I did find this website on Italians all over Latinamerica. It is
excellent and contains a lot of information. Here is the link:
http://www.apellidositalianos.com.ar/ According to the website the ship
departure records for the Porto di Genova were destroyed during the second
world war, but some archives are still available. They list this address:
*Autorita Portuale di
Genova
*
Porto di Genova - Archivo Storico
via della Mercanzia 2
16123 Genova
Tel. 39-010-2412330 / 2412319
Fax: 39-010-241 2397
info@porto.genova.it
Si bien los registros de salidas de pasajeros desde el puerto de Génova
fueron destruidos en la segunda guerra, aun conservan algunos
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Maria:
I am not sure, but I don't believe there were legal sailings from Genova to Mexico in the 1500s. Spain maintained a strict trade monopoly with its colonies and I would imagine that would imply that non-Spanish ships could not sail to her colonies... I will investigate. That does not necessarily mean they did not. I know there were lots of illegal sailings especially to smuggle out goods and smuggle in people who could not get licensias (Jews).
Here is a Lomeli from AER. It is the woman with the name Lomeli but taking maternal last names was common in the 1500s.
Archivo Archivo General de Indias
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16419//PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Título JUAN BAPTISTA VACO
Alcance y Contenido JUAN BAPTISTA VACO [sic], hijo de Gonzalo Vasto [sic] y de María Espíndola, marido de Isabel Lomeli, natural de Génova.
Nivel de Descripción Unidad Documental Simple
Fecha(s) [c] 1526-08-30
Signatura(s) PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Volumen
Productor(es) Información de
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Maria:
I am not sure, but I don't believe there were legal sailings from Genova to Mexico in the 1500s. Spain maintained a strict trade monopoly with its colonies and I would imagine that would imply that non-Spanish ships could not sail to her colonies... I will investigate. That does not necessarily mean they did not. I know there were lots of illegal sailings especially to smuggle out goods and smuggle in people who could not get licensias (Jews).
Here is a Lomeli from AER. It is the woman with the name Lomeli but taking maternal last names was common in the 1500s.
Archivo Archivo General de Indias
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16419//PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Título JUAN BAPTISTA VACO
Alcance y Contenido JUAN BAPTISTA VACO [sic], hijo de Gonzalo Vasto [sic] y de María Espíndola, marido de Isabel Lomeli, natural de Génova.
Nivel de Descripción Unidad Documental Simple
Fecha(s) [c] 1526-08-30
Signatura(s) PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Volumen
Productor(es) Información de
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Maria:
I am not sure, but I don't believe there were legal sailings from Genova to Mexico in the 1500s. Spain maintained a strict trade monopoly with its colonies and I would imagine that would imply that non-Spanish ships could not sail to her colonies... I will investigate. That does not necessarily mean they did not. I know there were lots of illegal sailings especially to smuggle out goods and smuggle in people who could not get licensias (Jews).
Here is a Lomeli from AER. It is the woman with the name Lomeli but taking maternal last names was common in the 1500s.
Archivo Archivo General de Indias
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16419//PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Título JUAN BAPTISTA VACO
Alcance y Contenido JUAN BAPTISTA VACO [sic], hijo de Gonzalo Vasto [sic] y de María Espíndola, marido de Isabel Lomeli, natural de Génova.
Nivel de Descripción Unidad Documental Simple
Fecha(s) [c] 1526-08-30
Signatura(s) PASAJEROS,L.1,E.2939
Volumen
Productor(es) Información de
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Enter "LOMELIN" in the first search field and then add another search field and enter "PASAJERO" These are just the listings for passengers to Mexico. There are many more mostly to Cartagena de Indias (Colombia).
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16419//PASAJEROS,L.5,E.3166
Título BRIGIDA LOMELIN
Alcance y Contenido BRIGIDA LOMELIN, natural de Tudela, hija de Juan Martínez y de Catalina Lomelin, a Nueva España, como criada de don Antonio Velázquez de Bazán.
Nivel de Descripción Unidad Documental Simple
Fecha(s) [c] 1571-07-06
Signatura(s) PASAJEROS,L.5,E.3166
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16419//PASAJEROS,L.11,E.353
Título LICENCIADO PEDRO DE BARRIENTOS LOMELIN
Alcance y Contenido LICENCIADO PEDRO DE BARRIENTOS LOMELIN, Racionero de la Catedral de México, a Nueva España. Información y licencia en CONTRATACION,5395,N.59
Nivel de Descripción Unidad Documental Simple
Fecha(s) [c] 1626-07-06
Signatura(s) PASAJEROS,L.11,E.353
Código de referencia ES.41091.AGI/16404.42
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lomelini