Hola. ¿Saben de la existencia de algún documento que compruebe que Juana era hija de Petronila? Hasta la fecha no he encontrado documentos concluyentes. Tampoco nada claro sobre Petronila, fuera del rumor que existe sobre una dispensa solicitada por sus descendientes para un matrimonio. Dispensa que se dice está en el archivo de Guillermo Tovar y de Teresa. Agradeceré cualquier informe al respecto. Saludos https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/Amelie
Hace unos días estuve en la presentación de un libro sobre Ecatepec. Presentado por la antropóloga María de la Asunción Gracía Samper, con el apoyo del INBA y del centro de estudios Mesoamericanos. Ella asegura la existencia de Petronila y de Juana. Y habla de la primera en su libro San Cristobal Ecatepec. Ahí mismo conocí a otro descendiente de Petronila que compartió conmigo la dispensa matrimonial. Intentaré subir el documento a esta página.
Saludos
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Dear Members,
I am trying to tie up some loose ends. I am arriving late to the whole Juana Navarro conversation. I do not have anything new to contribute. But I am looking forward to hearing if Amelie received the dispensa we have all been waiting for. As always, I agree that we need primary sources.
The purpose of my post is to try to firm some things up with primary sources, and ask some questions where I do not know how we have arrived at some conclusions. From Armando Antuaño’s transcription, it is proven, by the dispensa listed below, that María Gabai and Francisca Gabai were full sisters, daughters of Martín Navarro and Petronila de Montezuma.
Dispensa Matrimonial de Bartolomé Rodríguez Bajo y Tomasa de la Rosa Ulloa
From this same dispensa, it is shown that María Ruiz de Esparza was the daughter of Francisca Gabai. Searching on Nuestros Ranchos, it appears that people believe Lope Ruiz de Esparza was the father. Question #1, can someone please show me a primary
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hola Sergio,
First, the surname “Gabai” was written by some scribes as “Gabbadi.” The surname “Vaulus” was all over the place, too, sometimes written “Valdus.”
1. That Maria Ruiz de Esparza was the daughter of Lope Ruiz: on 25 Dec 1621 baptized was “Maria, hija de Pedro Tarasco y de Isabel su muger Tarasca, fue su madrina Ma Ruiz de Esparca hija de Lope Ruiz de Esparca su padre.”
She is also established as the daughter of Francisca Gabai in the dispensa of Joseph de Torres and Elvira de Ulloa, which names Francisca Gabai as the sister of Cristobal Navarro.
2. As per her testamento, dated 14 Jun 1677 in Aguascalientes, Juana de Siordia was the daughter of Pedro Fernandez de Vaulus and Maria de Gabai. This document can supposedly downloaded at the Aguascalientes Acervo Colonial Digital del Archivo Historico, but you have to have MS Internet Explorer to open any document.
3. Lope Ruiz de Esparza, who was married to Francisca Gabai, was the son of another Lope Ruiz de Esparza cc
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
As Ophelia Marquez and I prepared to share our Jaime Holcombe letters, we would occasionally add our comments as a footnote. Sometimes additional information was newly available, or perhaps we didn't agree with him or perhaps we just wanted to expand. So we tacked on our comments at the end of the letter, always in a different type font.
The comment regarding the 1651 death of Juana Navarro, wife of Benito de Islas, was taken from extractions of unmicrofilmed Teocaltiche records provided to me by Dr. J. Leon Helguera (who had received them from a very reliable researcher). To my knowledge, Jaime never saw those extractions. I introduced this particular extraction as raw data, without further comments, because I did not have (and still do not have) anything more to identify this couple.
Per Dr. Helguera, the extractions (1641-1733) he generously provided were incomplete. There were more very early death records in Teocaltiche! Unfilmed! So on August 1997 I went to the Notaria
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hi Mary Lou,
Thank you so much for providing us with this information. Your dropbox has helped me so much in my research. I really appreciate all that you have done for us.
Danny
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Mary Lou I am interested in these files what is the name of the file in the reference materials? Thank you so much!
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hola Amelie,
Bienvenido al grupo.
He solicitado la misma documentación en otros foros, pero todavía nadie me ha respondido. Lo que me lleva a creer que no existe ninguna documentación que compruebe que 1) Martín Navarro y Petronila de Moctezuma tuvieron una hija de nombre Juana Navarro que estaba casada con Benito de Isla, y 2) que Juana Navarro fue la madre de Magdalena de Lavezares y María de Isla y Moctezuma, y 3) que Juana Navarro y Benito de Isla fueron los padres de María de Isla, esposa de Cristóbal Martínez Lozano.
Por lo tanto, es mi opinión, que estas relaciones son teorías que aún no se han probado. Pero a medida que suceden las cosas con Internet, se han convertido en mitos urbanos sin ninguna base real.
Espero que alguien pueda demostrar que estoy equivocado. I dare you!
Por lo demás, hasta el momento sólo existe un documento que nombra a Martín Navarro y Petronila de Moctezuma, y es la dispensa de Bartolomé Rodríguez y Tomasa de Ulloa, que establece que Martín
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hi Manny,
MaryLou Montagna says that Juana Navarro was the wife of Benito de Isla, and says she was buried in Teocaltiche on 28 Dec 1651. She also names the albaceas of her will were Antonio de Ruvalcaba and Miguel Martínez de Alarcón, vecinos de Teocaltiche. And, says it was unmicrofilmed, but the only way she would know this information is if her and Jaime Holcomb saw the record. I don't know if the record named her parents, but if it named the children like Magdalena de Lavezares and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma that alone would pretty much confirm the accuracy
Danny
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Amelie, perdóname, voy a escribir en inglés; si me entiendes pues nada, si no o si tienes alguna duda, pregúntame.
Thank you for responding, Danny, and I hope you’re doing well! We had a discussion about these same families about 7 years ago, and nothing was ever determined. I even asked this very question 2 years ago, and I was referred to that same burial record - which really offers very little information. Here’s what it says:
“Juana Navarro, wife of Benito de Isla, was buried in Teocaltiche on 28 Dec 1651. The albaceas of her will were Antonio de Ruvalcaba and Miguel Martínez de Alarcón, vecinos de Teocaltiche. This information was extracted from an unmicrofilmed death record in Teocaltiche.”
In “Letters,” Holcombe made no comment about this entry, he didn’t even offer an opinion; he didn’t say that Juana Navarro was the mother of Magdalena de Lavezaris and the Maria de Isla’s, nor did he attempt to link her to Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. Unless he said these
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hi Manny,
Wow, it's been 7 years? I was just a kid. I can't believe it's been that long ago. I definitely agree with you that every tree out there comes from this little bit of information. And, that it's not much to go on. And, that everything out there is just speculation. I also don't really like the dates given as it doesn't leave a lot of time for the marriages and the children to fit in the time table. But, part of the theory makes sense to me, of course, with no proof. Do you think there's no actual record of a Juana Navarro married to a Benito de Isla or that there's just no proof that this Juana Navarro married to a Benito de Isla is connected to Petronila de Moctezuma?
The part of the theory that makes sense to me is that we know from various sources that Magdalena de Lavezaris and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma and Maria de Isla are siblings. We know that they all are the children of Benito de Isla and that at least one of them descends from and uses the name Moctezuma and
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Hola Manny y Alonso, estoy en la misma postura que ustedes y por eso sigo buscando. Hasta donde sé, Petronila tuvo puras hijas monjas, 3 creo recordar. Juana parece ser la oveja descarriada y por lo tanto hay pocos documentos sobre de ella. No estoy en casa durante un par de semanas, pero en cuanto vuelva voy a ver a una experta en los hijos de Moctezuma. Espero tenga información sobre Juana y Petronila. Seguiré en contacto. Es muy interesante lo que ustedes comentan. Muchas gracias. Saludos
- Inicie sesión para enviar comentarios
Dispensa matrimonial donde se menciona a Petronila.