I only descend from Charlamagne on both of my parent's sides, not Muhammad "the prophet".
Here is my first connection
Daniel Méndez del Camino b: 1992
José Gabriel Méndez y Cortés b: 1956
Martín Méndez de Serrano b: 1917
Lucía Gutiérrez de Serrano y Rubio de Mónrroy b: 1889
Juan José Gutiérrez de Serrano b: 1853
José Jesús Francisco de Serrano y de León b: 1825
Alexandro de Cerrano y de Ornelas b: 1799
María Juana Rafaela Alvina de Ornelas y García-Básquez de Lomelín b: 1770
Manuel Antonio de Ornelas y Báquez de Lara b: 1737
Gregorio de Ornelas y de la Crus b: 1713
Juan de Dios de Ornelas y Sánchez b: 1669
Andrés de Ornelas y de Orosco b: 1636
Alvaro IV de Ornelas y Hurtado de Mendoza, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1598
Alvaro III de Ornelas e de Vasconcellos, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1561
Mem de Ornelas e de Moura, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1530
João de Ornelas e Furtado de Mendoça, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1502
Alvaro II Alvarez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1440
Alvaro I López, Señor de Ornelas b: 1424
Lope Estévez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1409
Estefanía de Aviz, Princesa de Portugal b: 1381
João I de Aviz, Rey de Portugal b: 1357
Pedro I de Bourgoña, Rey de Portugal b: 1320
Beatrice Sánchez, Princesa de Castilla b: 1293
María de Molina, Señora de Meneses
Alfonso de Bourgoña, Príncipe de León
Alfonso IX de Bourgoña, Rey de León
Fernando II de Bourgoña, Rey de León
Alfonso VII de Bourgoña, Emperador de España
Raymond of Burgundy, Count of Galicia b: 1070
Count Guillaume I of Burgundy
Princess Alice of Normandy
Princess Judith of Rennes b: 982
Duke Conan of Bretagne-Rennes b: 940
Duke Juhel of Rennes b: 885
Count Judicael II of Rennes b: 815
Bernhard I, King of Italy b: 790
Pippin I, King of Italy b: 773
CHARLAMAGNE I, HOLY ROMAN EMPEROR b: 747
Hope this answers some questions or thoughts.
-Daniel Méndez del Camino
Hello:
It has been years since this topic has been discussed. I am currently going through each branch of my tree when I hit a crossroad with Alvaro Ornelas. There are many theories to his line but I am wondering if there has been any document that has been found to link him to his parents while in Mexico? His marriage record clearly shows his wife Ysabel Sanchez de Mendoza and her parents Toribio Hernandez de Arrellano and Isabel Mendoza listed but no listed parents. Has there been any documents online connecting his parents in recent years?
- Log in to post comments
25 - João Fernandes de Ornelas, senhor do solar de Dornelas, casado ( em ? ) com TERESA ANES DE VASCONCELOS
26 - D. JOÃO PERES DE VASCONCELOS, o Tenreiro, casado ( em ? ) com Maria Soares Coelho
It is important to understand that Joao Perez de Vasconcelos and Maria Soares Coelho are the parents of Teresa Anes de Vasconcelos. Joao Fernandez de Ornelas is their son in law, his father descends from Sancho Veloso .
"Sancho Veloso is the incestuous son of the King of Leon Don Rodrigo III and his sister the Princess Dona Ermesenda."(The Gran Enciclopedia Portuguesa e Brasileira). This is not a myth.
King Rodrigo III of Leon had an incestuous relationship with his half sister the princess Ermesande. From this relationship a child, Sancho el Veloso. was born with a genetic defect named congenital hypertrichosis. This is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of.
Definition: Congenital generalized hypertrichosis causes males to exhibit excessive facial and upper
- Log in to post comments
Este Álvaro de Ornelas ...
"5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança."
...como se indica, fue hijo de Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos (filho de Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos & Helena de Góis), administrador do vinculo, casado con Maria de Teive, filha de Diogo de Teive e Catarina Rodrigues. en el Título de Teives. Morreu no Caniço em 1583.
No es "nuestro" Álvaro de Ornelas. Existieron como unos 14 o 15 Alvaros de Ornelas y pues entre tantos se puede uno confundir. No he podido precisar exactamente cual de todos fue el mismísimo Álvaro de Ornelas, patriarca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco. Hubieron unos dos Álvaros de Ornelas, de otras ramas, que son los candidatos más posibles. Los ricos y abonanzados por primogenitura nunca dejaron su terruño de Madeira, sino los menos afortunados y de líneas segundonas que buscaron una vida nueva en la Nueva España.
Esta rama que puse aquí recientemente es la del Morgado do Caniço, o sea la más ilustre y primogénita, pero que se permaneció en
- Log in to post comments
"El Conde Don Rodrigo Perez Velloso, de quien trata este capitulo, que despues fué muy leal servidor del Emperador, era de la Casa Real de Leon, porque sus antecessores fuéron el Rey Don Ramiro de Leon, hijo de Don Sancho el Gordo: el qual en una hermana suya de parte de padre, llamada Doña Hermesinda, hubo un hijo que llamarón el Velloso, que fué gran caballero y poderoso en Galicia, donde tuvo muchas tierras y honores. Dél nació Don Rodrigo Velloso, Señor de Cabrera y Ribera en tiempo de Don Bermudo el Iunior y Don Hernando Primero. Dél nació Don Pedro Ruiz en el reynado de Don Alonso Sexto. Dél nació Don Rodrigo Perez Velloso, de quien trata este capítulo, que casó con hija del Conde Don Vela. De Don Rodrigo nació Fernan Ruiz de Cabreyra y Ribera, que casó con una Señora de Aragon de la Casa de Enteza. De Don Fernando nació Ruy Fernandez de Cabrera y Ribera, que casó dos veces. La primera con Doña María Flores de los Guzmanes de Leon. La segunda con Doña Sancha Ramirez, hija del
- Log in to post comments
.
Família antiga de Portugal, que tem por solar a honra de Dornelas, na terra de Entre Homen e Cávado actualmente freguesia de São Salvador no concelho de Amares, distrito de Braga, da qual tomou o paelido, que por se perder a noção da origem pois Dornelas é diminutivo de dornas, deu lugar à disjunção da incial, que se tomou por preposição, possando a de Ornelas. Fantasiosos autores pretendem ver neste fenómeno linguístico transformação intencional para atribuição de parentescos engrandecedores de família. Por varonia provém do Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso casado com D. Alambet, infanta francesa, ele filho do Conde D. Sancho Veloso. que se diz ter este apelido por haver nascido coberto de pêlos, e de sua mulher D. Moninha Forjaz, aquele filho incestuoso do rei de Leão. D., Rodrigo III e de sua irmã a infanta D. Ermesenda. Diz-se que o Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso nasceu na torre do Outeiro. situada na mesma freguesia que o solar de Dornlas, no ano de 981. João Fernades, o Franco, filho de Rui
- Log in to post comments
This "quote" is taken almost verbatim from “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS -
Pgs. 405-406.
Please tell Nuestros Ranchos that this (complete with spelling mistakes and factual errors...IT IS NOT RODRIGO III, BUT RATHER RAMIRO III) came from "The Heraldrys Institute of Rome"
http://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/cognomi/idc/602264/lang/en/
(These kinds of webpages of post-secondary sources are not accurate and should be accepted with EXTREME CAUTION)
Whether or not we descend from an incestuous relationship has been highly debated in Portuguese genealogical circles FOR YEARS!!!! Just search "Sancho Veloso/Velloso" and you will see what I mean. A few authors gloss over it saying it is a farce, nonsense, a myth, a legend, a conspiracy to usurp the throne. I don't know because I wasn't there. I'm not gonna read a book or some website, and act like
- Log in to post comments
This "quote" is taken almost verbatim from “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS -
Pgs. 405-406.
Please tell Nuestros Ranchos that this (complete with spelling mistakes and factual errors...IT IS NOT RODRIGO III, BUT RATHER RAMIRO III) came from "The Heraldrys Institute of Rome"
http://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/cognomi/idc/602264/lang/en/
(These kinds of webpages of post-secondary sources are not accurate and should be accepted with EXTREME CAUTION)
Whether or not we descend from an incestuous relationship has been highly debated in Portuguese genealogical circles FOR YEARS!!!! Just search "Sancho Veloso/Velloso" and you will see what I mean. A few authors gloss over it saying it is a farce, nonsense, a myth, a legend, a conspiracy to usurp the throne. I don't know because I wasn't there. I'm not gonna read a book or some website, and act like
- Log in to post comments
We are discussing right here, right now in Nuestros Ranchos questions about our Ornelas ancestry that our Portuguese and Brazilian primos have have been discussing, arguing about, and fighting over for YEARS!!!!
http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=251539&fview=e
I am not convinced by hear-say, so I'm always skeptical when I see "proof." The documentation closer to the time period, and from an original source, archive, or book is preferable to re-hashed Web pages from genealogy forum discussion threads (Just like this one!!!)
I just want to encourage others to be more cautious, but most importantly...ANALYZE MULTIPLE SOURCES, NOT JUST ONE. The more the better
And Senhor Simões puts it best:
"É preciso ter muita cautela com linhas genealogicas que recuam até á epoca medieval - muitas delas baseiam-se erros e documentos fantasistas. Esta, provavelmente , é uma delas.
Não houve nenhum rei de Leão "Rodrigo III", no séx X. Houve o rei Rodrigo, dos Visigodos (muito antes de haver
- Log in to post comments
Hello Steven Hernandez,
I agree that much still needs to be studied on this line and that there is misinformation on the this subject on the internet. We need to be careful to not help spread misinformation. I do believe that there is truth in the birth of Sancho El Veloso and believe that resulted in his genetic abnormality, congenital hypertrichosis, that is extremely rare, in fact it is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of. I don't believe that it is a coincidence that extremely rare cases of congenital Hypertrichosis have a common ancestor from the Ornelas family.
The famous Mexican and Portuguese families that have this condition are descendants of Sancho Veloso through the Ornelas line.
In India a man has been found with this condition, and of course, there is a record of an Ornelas visiting India.
The Mexican families are said to be able to trace their descendancy to Portugal though I am not in possession of their family tree. One of these families
- Log in to post comments
Hello Steven Hernandez,
I agree that much still needs to be studied on this line and that there is misinformation on the this subject on the internet. We need to be careful to not help spread misinformation. I do believe that there is truth in the birth of Sancho El Veloso and believe that resulted in his genetic abnormality, congenital hypertrichosis, that is extremely rare, in fact it is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of. I don't believe that it is a coincidence that extremely rare cases of congenital Hypertrichosis have a common ancestor from the Ornelas family.
The famous Mexican and Portuguese families that have this condition are descendants of Sancho Veloso through the Ornelas line.
In India a man has been found with this condition, and of course, there is a record of an Ornelas visiting India.
The Mexican families are said to be able to trace their descendancy to Portugal though I am not in possession of their family tree. One of these families
- Log in to post comments
Estimados primos:
Lamento decirles que a pesar de la facilidad de resúmenes genealógicos como el presentado sobre el linaje de los Ornelas, es muy peligroso aceptar estos “datos” como fuentes documentales verídicas ya que hay información incorrecta aquí, específicamente en ciertas generaciones particulares. Es muy divertido soñar que tenemos “sangre real” y más cuando investigamos familias y linajes que se reconocen tenerla. Nuestras imaginaciones vuelan por las nubes de sangre azul, pero nos olvidamos de acertarnos en la veracidad de los documentos fidedignos.
Aquí queda como anillo al dedo recordar el viejo refrán, que dice así: “Una cadena es tan fuerte como el más débil de sus eslabones. (A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.)”
Yo ya llevo como unos cinco años investigando la genealogía de los Ornelas de la isla portuguesa de Madeira. Estoy de acuerdo con Daniel que entre las generaciones 14 y 19 las personas mencionadas son correctas, ya que los habíamos
- Log in to post comments
I put Daniels info into my computer but I have struggled for years trying to find information that corroborates the jump from Portugal to Mexico. I posted my lines according to what Daniel Mendez wrote but my research never showed the link. On the contrary, I found that the Alvaro Ornelas son of mem ornelas y Vasconcellos died in his youth "crianca morre". I thought either I was wrong or maybe mem ornelas had a second son named alvaro ornelas. His grandfather named two sons Joao Ornelas, one from each wife. Also the dates that I have didn't seem to fit with the alvaro ornelas of Mexico, Too small of a window but again, I thought maybe my dates are off a little. I am glad to hear that you also had issues with the validity of this line. I actually think that it is possible that Alvaro is one of the Aires Ornelas in the family tree since Aires is the first born son and he would have inherited the title first. If aires was the link then Too bad that the connection could not be
- Log in to post comments
Paco,
Very interesting, and I agree with you. My husband has Ornelas in his lines, as well as Alba, Cervantes, and other famous surnames. He could care less. His DNA shows he is haplogroup T1 Mesopotamian, and he was disappointed that his DNA doesn't show indigenous lines like mine (haplogroup C, Native American, pre-Columbian). His hero is Benito Juarez who was Zapotec I think.
I will be interested to see if my husband's Ornelas tie in to yours.
Thank you,
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:57:34 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Os Ornelas da Ilha da Madeira (Portugal)
>
> Estimados primos:
>
> Lamento decirles que a pesar de la facilidad de resúmenes genealógicos como el presentado sobre el linaje de los Ornelas, es muy peligroso aceptar estos “datos” como fuentes documentales verídicas ya que hay información incorrecta aquí, específicamente en ciertas generaciones
- Log in to post comments
Hello Steve,
I have also spent a lot of time working on the ornelas lines. I totally agree with you that our Alvaro Ornelas is a great grandson or great great grandson of Alvaro Ornelas " o Grande" and Elvira Fernandez de Saavedra. I have been totally unsuccessful in coming up with the right link though.
The Alvaro Ornelas, son of Mem Ornelas that I found to be a possibility became an impossibility when I discovered that he is recorded as dying at a young age. But still there is a small possibility that we have a case like one my ancestors, Domingo Alvarez Tostado, who both Mariano Gonzalez Leal and Jaime Holcombe record as dying at a young age. Marriage dispensations, marriage records, and baptismal records state very clearly that the parents of my ancestor Domingo Alvarez Tostado are the same parents of the dead Domingo Alvarez tostado. Domingo's descendants repeatedly married his sisters descendents and there are many many marriage dispensations identifying their relationship.
- Log in to post comments
Actually there are TONS of other excellent sources for Ornelas genealogy which I didn’t mention. Sorry my notes are all scattered about. I have the exact Ornelas chapter in Felgueiras Gaio’s Nobiliario that you are mentioning…I found it a few years ago. It’s in Volume 21, pages 185 to 188.
1. “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS - Pgs. 405-406
2. “Famílias do Rio Grande de São Pedro : um contributo à genealogia sul-rio-grandense. Casa de Ornellas ou Dornelles” / Saul Palma Souto & Homero Corrêa Pires Dornelles; Porto Alegre, Brasil : Editora GCI, 2004.
3. “Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira”, Volume 3 – Ornellas. Henrique Henriques de Noronha; Funchal : 1700; Edição da Revista Genealógica Brasileira “Biblioteca Genealógica Latina”. Edição de São Paulo : 1948.
4. "Nobiliário das Famílias de Portugal", Tomo Vigésimo Primeiro (XXI), ORNELLAS pgs. 185-188.
- Log in to post comments
• 5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança.????????
• 5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança.???????
.• 5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança.???????
R.A.Ricci
- Log in to post comments
This is my wife's line to Charlemagne through Alvaro Ornelas. The issue I have is he the son of Guiomar De Bettencourt Freitas or is he the son from the second wife Antonia de Vasconcellos. I am assuming the second wife but am not positive since there is Vasconcellos in the Ornelas line a couple generations back.
Both of my parents and both of my wives parents descend from Alvaro Ornelas.
Jose Marquez b: 1663
Diego Marquez b: 1620
Maria de Ornelas y Hurtado de Mendoza, b: 1595
Alvaro III de Ornelas e de Vasconcellos, 12th Conde D'Ornelas b: 1561 is he the son of Guiomar De Bettencourt Freitas or is he the son from the second wife Antonia de Vasconcellos. I am assuming the second wife but am not positive since there is Vasconcellos in the Ornelas line a couple generations back. I was hoping that it was the Bettencourt since I compiled much of their genealogy when I was studying my Braquemont ancestry and found their lives very interesting.
Mem de Ornelas e de Moura, b: 1530 +
- Log in to post comments
This Alvaro Ornelas line has different information than the other one you posted. Since this one is posted later does this mean that this is the one you have settled on and what information do you have to make the changes.
Thanks,
R.A.Ricci
- Log in to post comments
Hi Daniel or should I say Hi Primo Daniel...
This is just one of my linking with Charlemagne... down to my Portuguese ancestors that settled on the island of Madeira. In the coming week I'll check out where our branches took a different path ending with us... ;-)...
Prima Pat Silva Corbera
Here's my connection to Charlemagne (0742)
Pepin I and IV
Bernard (Bernhard)
Pepino II de Peronne
Herbert (Hubert)I de Vermandois
Herbert II
Roberto I
Adelaide de Vermandois
Ermengarda Gerberge
Judith
Robert I
William I
Henry I Beauclerc
Matilde Maud
Henry II Plantagenet
Alienor Plantagenet
Bernegaria
Ferdinand III
Alfonso X
Sancho IV
Teresa Sanches
Maria Rodriguez de Vilalobos
Guiomar Lopes Pacheco
Joao Afonso Telo Menezes
Maria de Menezes
Joao Alvares Pereira
Vasco Pereira
Diogo Pereira
Isabel Pereira
Ines Barreto de Menezes
Vasco Martins Moniz
Ines Moniz
Guiomar Moniz
Ines Alvares da Rua
Branca de Atouguia
Rodrigo Alvares de Costa
Leonor de Atouguia da Costa
Jorge Pinto da Costa
- Log in to post comments
Hi Patricia! This is interesting, you alfo descend from Sancho I of Portugal, Ime too! Im thinking ere related about 100 times. THe Ornelas lines came from Madeira to México in 1570's. THey came to Madeira arcound 1470 or so. There's a funny fasct, everyone on Madeira is related! I think it was 7 or 12 families that arrive and colonized it. I dont know that much on the Silvas, but do know some history. It looks like their primary Royal House is Aragon. The first silva was Pedro Paés da Silva born in 1092. They owned a tower or castle because he title was senhor da honra de torre da silva. Lord of the Tower/castle of Silva. There are two branches the Portuguese which broke off ca. 1250?
até a próxima vez, seu primo
Daniel Mendés del Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join
- Log in to post comments
Hi Daniel,
Thank you for the added info... I'll continue our exchange "in private e-mails.." Pat
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Daniel Mendez
>
> Hi Patricia! This is interesting, you alfo descend from Sancho I of Portugal,
> Ime too! Im thinking ere related about 100 times. THe Ornelas lines came from
> Madeira to M
- Log in to post comments
Here's Pat's onnection to Charlemagne (0742) and then her connection to me
Pepin I and IV
Bernard (Bernhard)
Pepino II de Peronne
Herbert (Hubert)I de Vermandois
Herbert II
Roberto I
Adelaide de Vermandois
Ermengarda Gerberge
Judith
Robert I
William I
Henry I Beauclerc
Matilde Maud
Henry II Plantagenet
Alienor Plantagenet
Bernegaria
Ferdinand III
Alfonso X
Sancho IV
Teresa Sanches
Maria Rodriguez de Vilalobos
Guiomar Lopes Pacheco
Joao Afonso Telo Menezes
Maria de Menezes
Joao Alvares Pereira
Vasco Pereira
Diogo Pereira
Isabel Pereira
Ines Barreto de Menezes
Vasco Martins MoInes Moniz
Ines Moniz
Guiomar Moniz
Ines Alvares da Rua + Luis Atouguia (the Kings treasurer)
Branca de Atouguia. (Sister to Isabel Atouguia) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Rodrigo Alvares de Costa
Leonor de Atouguia da Costa
Jorge Pinto da Costa
Isabel de Amil
Joao Barreto
Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade
Jacome Cesar de Lira
Agueda Cesar e Lira
Pedro Homem d'El-Rei
Ana Delfina Cesar
Ana Cesar Ferreira
Maria Augusta
- Log in to post comments
Alvaro Ornelas Inquiry