Several of us descend from Alonso de Estrada, royal treasurer and colonial governor of Nueva España, during the time of Cortés. Legend has him as the bastard son of Rey Fernando II el Catolico and a Luisa de Estrada, daughter of an ambassador. This is refuted by the 1585 limpieza de sangre of his great-grandson, Gobernador Jorge de Alvarado y Villafañe, which names Alonso de Estrada’s parents as Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, of Ciudad Real, and his first wife - whose name none of the witnesses could remember, only that his 2nd wife was surnamed Oliver. It did name his paternal grandparents as Diego Fernandez Hidalgo and Maria Gonzalez de Estrada. That document can be found at the PARES website, and it is digitized in its entirety, if you want to read it, though it is long and a hard read. It is the only historical document that I know of that names the father of Alonso de Estrada. Until now…and believe me, this one is a MUCH easier read!
I was grazing through the Mexican Inquisition archives, and I randomly came upon this. It’s the limpieza and proof of nobility of Licenciado Alvaro Gomez de Abaunza y Castro, oidor de la Audiencia de Guatemala, and later alcalde de crimen de la Audiencia de Mexico, and of his wife, Doña Isabel Costilla de Saavedra. It appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608. While glancing through their lines, I noticed that she was great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria, and to my amazement, it names their parents! I jumped out of my chair!
According to her prueba de nobleza, Alonso de Estrada’s father was Juan Fernandez de Estrada, corresponding with the 1585 Jorge Alvarado limpieza, but it names his mother as Luisa de Oliver. She might be the N. de Oliver mentioned in the 1585 limpieza, making her Fernandez’s second wife, and therefore step-mother of Alonso de Estrada - unless his father married sisters, which is totally possible.
Either way, while the identity of his mother might still be in doubt, we now have a second document confirming that Alonso de Estrada was son of Juan Fernandez de Estrada, aka Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, who, according to the entry for Marina de Estrada (img249L), was:
“hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real, donde fue casado con doña luisa de oliver vezina de la dicha ciudad y fundo el mayorazgo de la Villa de Picon y de otras haciendas suyas…”
“the second son of the House of Estrada, who came from Asturias to Ciudad Real, where he married doña Luisa de Oliver, native of said city, and who founded the mayorazgo of the Villa de Picon, and of other haciendas in his possession…”
So, it’s looking more and more like there was no royal bastard birth for our infamous ancestor, Alonso de Estrada, and that it was just a legend, that probably grew from a popular joke, regarding his rapid ascent to power. I loved the idea of descending from a bastard son of the Catholic King - I love the irony, and I was thrilled when I first read about it, but these pieces of the puzzle keep popping up and bursting that bubble!
All the same, Alonso de Estrada’s life story is just as compelling, and even more impressive, if he did it without being of royal blood. It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.
This prueba also gives a genealogy of his wife, Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria, naming her parents and paternal grandparents, though it mistakenly names her grandfather as Alonso Gutierrez de la Caballeria, when it was his brother, Comendador Gonzalo Gutierrez: her grandmother, Doña Catalina de Luna, married brothers, sons of Men Gutierrez de la Caballeria cc Catalina de la Cabra. It does mention that Doña Catalina de Luna was niece of Alvaro de Luna, Condestable de Castilla, which is super cool, and shows how connected these Sefardi families were to the centers of power. By the way, there is no mention of Doña Marina being descended from Conversos, which is discussed in depth in the 1585 limpieza. I guess too many generations had passed.
I recommend reading this limpieza y prueba. The script is highly legible, and it’s laid out in columns, by relationships and by generations, with biographies of each ancestor. It’s like an encyclopedia: Alvaro Gomez de Abaunza and Isabel Costilla had some illustrious ancestors, back in Spain, and in Colonial Mexico and Guatemala - primeros conquistadores y pobladores, some really good stuff, and I’m sure some of you will make some connections.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Great information Manny. This seems to settle it.
Danny
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I had previously stated that I didn’t descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife. What I should have said was that I had not found him in my ancestral lines. Today I discovered that my wife and I both descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife Marina Gutierrez De la Cavalleria.
Rick A. Ricci
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About six months ago I worked on the genealogy of my oldest sister’s mother-in-law. I had previously worked on my sister’s father-in-law’s family tree many many years ago, but had not worked on her mother-n-law’s family. I was surprised to discover many interesting stories on her mother-in law’s relatives as they were also deeply involved in Mexican Politics. It turns out that this research now connects to my research on Alonso Estrada. Today I discovered that an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon is an ancestor of Enrique, who is a second cousin of my brother-in-law. The two families merged together into the same picture.
I immediately thought that if we were to compare the dna from Enrique to Manny Hermosillo, who is a descendant of Alonso Estrada, then we could finally prove with dna that Alonso Estrada was king Ferdinand II’s illegitimate son. I even sent an email to Enrique asking him to provide his dna so that we could compare it to a descendant of
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Hi Rick,
I don't know if this would work with my sample, since I descend from Alfonso XI and most ancestors of Fernando II.
Thanks,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
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Manny,
Do you descend from them based on ancestors discussed on the forum or through other ancestors? Just curious because I have a hard enough time finding my first ancestors for each line in Mexico, let alone making the leap to Spain! I'm jealous!
Alex
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Hi Alex,
No, it's through other lines. I've got a few gateway ancestors, among them Diego de Guevara y Tovar (early regidor of Mexico City) and Juan Alonso de Sosa (Alonso de Estrada's successor and son-in-law). For the most part, I usually track my Mexican ancestors back to the first one to arrive on the continent and stop there, but there's been a lot of work done on these guys, being historical figures. When I have more time, I'll work on the earlier Spanish stuff.
Hope you're well!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
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Ahh gotchya, congrats getting that far!
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Hi Manny,
If you keep sending me pearls I will never finish my book! Another thread that you sent me shows another connection in Spain. As you already know, a big part of my book is to show how many of the families are already related before they came over to the Americas. Not only has your find provided more confirmation, in my eyes, that Alonso Estrada is King Ferdinands’s son, you also have helped me connect another one of your ancestors to Alonso Estrada’s maternal line. This first wife of Juan Fernandez Estrada s the sister of another of your ancestors. Even the people who disagree with the conclusion that king Ferdinand is the father of Alonso Estrada will find much information in my book as I provide Juan Fernandez Estrada’s and his wife’s ancestry, and show how they are connected to our other ancestors.
Happy President’s day,
May we thank God for the many great presidents that we have had in the past such as Lincoln, Washington, both Roosevelt’s, both Adams, and
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Hi Manny
Do you descend from Juan Alonso De Sosa Estrada y Mariana De Guevara Barrios? If so, I would really love to see the line of descent from them and add it to my book. I have done much work on their ancestors. I have them connecting to many families.
Thanks,
Rick
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For those of you that thought that I turned over the cart when I said that the dispensa provided evidence shows that King Ferdinand was the illegitimate father of Alonso Estrada, you will be even more surprised, shocked, as I was, to discover that King Ferdinand’s first marriage to Isabella was not sanctioned by the church due to the political climate and that they married by forging their names on a marriage dispensation that had been written for another couple. They, therefore, were never legally married by the Catholic Church. How ironic since they are commonly known as the Catholic King and Queen. Many English, French, and Spanish nobles, including heads of state from other countries were against the marriage alliance of these two. This placed the Vatican in a corner as they didn’t want to anger so many powerful people. This dispensation was not disclosed as fraudulent because while the Vatican knew it was forged, it relieved them from entering into the political fight over the
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There was not just one ambassador of King Ferdinand’s to England. During that time period An ambassador was usually an appointment for a relatively brief mission. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother’s appointment as ambassador was for a much longer time period due to the nature of his negotiations. This made his brother more well known as an ambassador, which then led many genealogists to mistakenly claim that he was the father of Luisa Estrada.
Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000
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Hi Rick,
Yes, in a hurry to seal their union, the Catholic Monarchs procured a papal bull, supposedly signed by the previous pope, that allowed Fernando II to marry any eligible princess related to him within 3 degrees. Very convenient! Nevertheless, their marriage was dispensed and legitimized in 1471 with the Bula de Simancas, issued by the following pope.
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As far as “turning over the cart” re: Alonso de Estrada’s paternity: I’ve still seen nothing that convinces me that the 2 limpiezas I’ve cited are forgeries. To paraphrase Jaime Holcombe, “As Juan de Arrigunaga used to say: ‘Una genealogia que no está probada con documentos fidedignos, es pura vacilada.’ (“A genealogy that isn’t proven with unimpeachable documents is a pure joke.”). But recognizing the possible non-existence of primary sources explicitly stating that Fernando II is Alonso de Estrada’s father, I’m willing to wait until the release of MG2K, to see your work, and to see how the pieces fall into place. So, please
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Hi Manny,
The first dispensation used for Ferdinand's and Isabela's wedding was originally not for them . The previous pope didn’t write a blank dispensa for Ferdinand, especially when there was so much discussion over who should be the rightful ruler of Castilla. Ferdinand had been engaged to marry someone else when the previous Pope was in power. England and France were also sticking their hand in the pot, and the current Pope was stuck with his back against a wall, knowing that whatever decision he made was going to be met with displeasure by many of the people. So the Pope did nothing and let it play out. It worked to the Popes favor that he didn’t have to decide anything until much later. Dispensing and legitimizing the marriage in 1471 wouldn’t have been necessary if the first one had been legitimate.
The two limpiezas that you are saying are proof of the identity of Alonso Estrada’s father raises many questions as they are not discussing the same Estrada family. The
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These inquest records supported by some researchers are in constant dispute.
Ricci has shared great examples of why. This is what we know from the inquest records we have someone trying to prove their purity of blood of neither Moor nor Jew.
In doing this he would have to prove he wasn't from Jewish descent decades upon decades later. There is no one alive from this time who really knew his relatives. Tall order. Here is something else he would have to prove; he had to prove he had a credible witness which even the inquest was not satisfied he had done.
The witness according to the entries was cited repeatedly by the inquisition that she was very old, blind, and could not remember but thought her relatives told her that the mother was was a so and so, perhaps Oliver. The witness upon inquiry continues to repeat she really didn't know she couldn't remember.
When asked if there was Jewish blood she again resorts to I don't know, I don't remember , I couldn't say. We have to
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Dear Ana,
I appreciate your comments and support. Though I am already convinced that Alonso Estrada is the son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, it is important to continue adding information as the more puzzle pieces we add, the clearer the picture.
I am very interested in obtaining the document in Spanish records papers which refers to Alonso Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" and any other information on this subject.
I don’t descend from Alonso Estrada, but I do descend from the Gutierrez De Cavalleria.
Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci
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Hi Ana
I too am interested in seeing the source for "the king's little sin" and also for the quote "I am the son of the king". I think you make an intersting argument in your post - the broader perpective of Estrada's relationship with Cortez.
For anyone else who might be interested, Hugh Thomas - in his book Conquest - has a lot of information on the murder of Cortez's first wife, some in text and some in footnotes. There is info on Alonso de Estrada in it as well, and also in one of Thomas' other books "The Golden Empire". (Ana, maybe your quote come from Thomas? My books are at home and I am out of town, so I can't check.)
Regards,
Denise
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Rags to riches stories involve skill, talent, work, or luck. Usually it will involve all of them. Alonso Estrada was a violent, aggressive man. He became treasurer because his nephew, Charles V, appointed him. Charles V took care to set up both of his illegitimate uncles, Alonso Estrada and Alfonso d’Aragon.
Alonso Estrada was born to privilege and acted like it. I don’t know of any non royal family member arriving with 12 of their own household slaves during this age. He was not a capable administrator and did not make it to the level that he did on his own merits. If he had been a son of Juan Fernandez Estrada then he would had to work a little harder on his personal and diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather, Juan Fernandez Estrada, was a very talented man, with top diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather’s brother also had excellent diplomatic skills as he too was an ambassador. The brothers were negotiators, deal makers.
If Alonso was not King Ferdinand’s son than
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Juan Fernandez Estrada, Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather and his brother were both ambassadors for King Ferdinand of Aragon. Many historians and genealogists have confused the two, or merged them into one person. But they are definitely two people. Juan Fernandez Estrada was the ambassador to the Vatican. Juan was sent to the Vatican immediately after the expulsion of the moors from Granada.
Both of the brothers had a lot of power as they both had King Ferdinand’s ear. Juan’s brother exercised a lot power in his assignments, and his descendants continued working for the future kings of Spain exercising much influence.
Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000
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Rick,
Awesome! I am looking forward to see how you connected the dots, since nobody else has bothered to do so! I’ll be buying a copy of MyGenes, so I can wait.
The book you’re looking to move, is that the Revista de Indias you’re talking about, with the Castro y Tosi article, based on the 1585 Jorge Alvarado limpieza?
Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
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Manny,
During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime, it was common knowledge that he was the illegitimate son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, the daughter of an ambassador and his first wife. Alonso Estrada would often boast of being his son. In early history books Alonso de Estrada was identified as an illegitimate son of Rey don Fernando II, El Católico, of Aragón. This is mentioned by the early historiagrapher of Nueva España, Bernal Díaz del Castillo. Alonso Estrada was accustomed to a life in the court of King Ferdinand so when he arrived in Nueva España he had his 12 household servants/slaves with him.
Alonso Estrada was raised in the kings court and enjoyed priveliges that a legitimate younger son would have received. It was only because he was illegitimate that he didn’t receive even more privileges. Alonso’s mother was also known during his lifetime. The issue has been that historians and genealogists have made mistakes in identifying her father as some identify her father’s
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The biggest scandal in the Estrada family was not Alonso Estrada and Catalina Gutierrez Cavalleria ‘s descendants’ inquisition trials, nor was it Luisa having a child out of wedlock with King Ferdinand of Aragon. The biggest Estrada family scandal happened in the late. 1500’s and early 1600’s. The misdeeds were committed by a great grandson of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother. This Estrada family member wrote about his scandalous behavior, letting the world know about his misdeeds. He wrote he killed his bethrowed and a friend in a jealous tantrum when he found them together in a room. His fiancé was also the daughter of his cousin. He then escaped justice when a nun fell in love with him and helped him escape from his cell. He then traveled the old world, as a soldier for hire. He eventually settled down, became a monk and wrote his memoirs.
His books are supposed to be autobiographies, and most of what he has written is true but there is a little exaggeration because some
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Dear Manny,
There are portions of this family tree that are different than the other record. I believe that your finding of this record confirms my research on this family even though it clearly has some mistakes. This record correctly identifies that Alonso descends from the Juan Fernandez Estrada that was the second son the Estrada family that came over. The information that I have on on his parents and wives is concrete. The facts lead to Ambassador Juan Fernandez Estrada being Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather!and not his father. King Ferdinand is Alonso Estrada’s father.
King Ferdinand as an ancestor was not something many of his descendants were proud of because many of them were Jews. King Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews from Spain devastated many families.
Thanks again,
Rick A Ricci
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A very important piece used to unraveling the mystery is the part where Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real”. This statement is the one that brings all the other puzzle pieces that I have collected together and positively identifies who it is that we are talking about.
Rick A. Ricci
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Dear Manny,
Sorry to burst the bubble on the:
“It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.”
It would have been a great “rags to riches” story, but Alonso Estrada was an illegitimate son of a king and the kings not-to-distant cousin so he had a major advantage from birth. He actually descended from royalty numerous times.
Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000
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I completely agree with you from the research that I have found Estrada threatens Cortez with "I am the son of the king" you will obey. Cortez backed down according to the text, Cortez backed down to no one. In fact Cortez got away with murdering his aristocrat wife with Royal connections and witnesses. A man of lower nobility placed ABOVE Cortez to oversee him would have soon met his end. Cortez hated the aristocracy that came from Spain to oversee him as it was harder to remove them by force.
This did not happen in the case of Estrada, despite Cortez's distinct hatred of the man and Estrada's constant threats to Cortez. Also there is a document in Spanish records papers which refer to Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" which was mentioned in a Tomo. I wonder if you have had a chance to review that one?
I am in the process of seeing if I can get my hands on it.
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Hi
Just a follow-up on this thread...did Ana/Giest1 or anyone else ever find the Tomo with the phrase "the king´s little sin"?
I descend from Alonso de Estrada, world like to get his paternity straightened out, if possible.
Regards
Denise
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Hi Denise,
I think Ana/Giest1 or whomever she was quoting confused the legends - that is how la Reina Isabel referred to the 3 bastard sons of her ally, Cardinal Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza. She called them “los bellos pecados del cardenal.” Here's a reference: http://slroute.com/2018/05/07/leyendas_los-bellos-pecados-del-cardenal-…
As for the paternity of Alonso de Estrada, I did find a primary source that named him as Fernando’s son, which I’ll post, as soon as I’m near my home computer.
Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
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Thanks Manny
, I’m looking forrward to reading about your primary source. Two great grandchildren of Alonso Estrada married, and I descend from their daughter, so I descend from Alonso Estrada twice.
It would have been impossible for Alonso Estrada to be anything other than the king of Spain to get away with the things that he did. Charles protected his uncle Alonso Estrada. During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime the only references to his father pointed to King Ferdinand II el Catolico
And the second dispensation record that you found Manny corroborates my research as to which brother was the father of Luisa Estrada.
Thanks again Manny,
Rick A. Ricci
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Hi Rick and Manny
Thanks for your prompt responses! I agree with you Rick, that the way King Charles treated Alonso is a good clue, and then there is also Cortez´behavior toward Alonso as noted in a comment here by Giest1. So, Manny, I am really really looking forward to what you have to share :).
After focusing the past several years on my mother´s side, I am now reviewing the material I have on my paternal grandmother´s side. There is that small percent of DNA from the British Isles that has come down through her line....want to find out where it comes from.
Regards
Denise
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Hi Denise,
That little percent of British comes from a few different sources. I willl name four. First, if you descend from Spanish royalty then you have a little British DNA.. Second, when the British sided with King Pedro cruel of Castilla they left British descendants in Castilla. Some even stayed on the Iberian peninsula. Third, I traced a line from a Viking that first left descendants in France, and then they branched out to England and Spain so this line left descendants with a trace of Norwegian/Swedish, in English, French, and Spanish branches. This line intermarried with English and French before going to Spain. Fourth, Sancho Martinez de Leyva married the Isabel Plantagenet (Suffolk) illegitimate daughter of the English King. Sancho and Isabella raised their family in Castilla and many of their descendants came to Mexico. These British ancestors would only account for a very small percentage of British DNA in single digits.
King Ferdinand II had a little English DNA and so
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Hi Rick
Many thanks for your imput! I have thought something along the same lines, but with the observation that a sibling of my grandmother had 6% British Isle genes, and us grandchildren only 1-2%, I thought perhaps there was an English/Irish/Scottish ancestor within the past 6-7 generations. If so, I could perhaps put a name on that individual, like I did with the African genes (found the mulattos on my mom´s side) But it also occured to me that repeated instances of cousins marrying cousins in colonial mexico would have kept the genes in circulation in my grandmother´s lines, as they were Spanish (according to her, "puro espanol") and not inclined to marry non-Spanish, and sometimes cousins did marry cousins, or else the bride and groom had a common ancestor from Spain way back. But then my grandmother married a man who we now know had some Native-American genes (though you wouldn´t know if you saw him) and they had a son (my father) who married a woman (my mother) with a third
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Hello Denise,
I have the same small percentage of DNA. I have traced my ancestry much further than seven generations so my small percentage has to come from the endogamy of people that carried that small percentage for centuries.
In the previous post I named four examples of how people may have British DNA. I left out two others by mistake. The fifth is a woman who was the daughter of a man I only know as an Englishman “albañil” and a Castilian Jewish woman. Through their daughter, this Englishman and his Jewish Wife are the ancestors to many, many lines of nobility in Spain. I am in the process of collecting information on her descendants. Alonso Estrada’s mother descends from the “albañil inglés” and Jewish woman. Through his mother he also descends from King Pedro el Cruel de Castilla.
The first five examples Of how I have a small percentage of British DNA.
The sixth possibility is not part of my ancestry. This possibility is that you descend from one of the six
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to everyone. I did not get an alert in my email.. I may have to change it to another one so I can see my mail unfettered.
Francisco Fernandez del Castillo states the reference is from the Inquisition (reference cited as Archivo de Inqisición, Tomo 365) it was common knowledge in Ciudad Real and Almagro that Alonso de Estrada was an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Castile (Fernandez del Castillo 399). I sent the request for the citation to one of the Universities I have not heard back whether they can provide that via E-book. "Historical Archives of the Nation in Madrid , Testimony 1501, No. 17 referred to by Fernandez del Castillo, 398-399. Sources Francisco Fernndez del Castillo, "Alonso de Estrada: Su Familia," in Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Historia1(1942)"
I will provide the reference to Alonso himself citing he was the King's son in a fury which I read as well in my next post.
From what I read so far from you
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i've always believed that Alonso de Estrada was the son of the king. I've seen too many documents in Mexico where they try multiple times to cover up who the real parents are to avoid scandal. I think the most obvious indicator that he was the son of the king is the fact that he claimed to be the son of the king. I don't think he would be able to go around saying he was the son of the king and not get in trouble for it. And not only did he not get in trouble, he was made viceroy. It seems to me pretty obvious that he was the son of the King.
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I contacted the publisher I got the entire catalog of writing I am just now going over it. It names Alonso de Estrada's great-grandson as his main source in his own words!! It was in that record. I am scrambling trying to get the citation at least by next week so I can read the actual document. Evidently there are many, many golden nuggets in there. Francisco says most of his work came from that declaration by Estradas great-grandson. So it seems you were right on track the genealogists were confusing people. Estrada's family is exactly who we thought and who was named in the inquisition declaration transcribed by Don Francisco Fernadez de Castillo in his writing. The reference he used was not the legend Manny was referring to but actually the transcription he uses is: "Picadillo Amaroso Del Rey don Fernando el Catolico y cierta dama de la familia de los Estradas, una de mas ilustres del reino". Francisco then gives the citation. That is what I am working on right now the actual
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Found at PARES:
Supplied Title: Proceso contra Alonso de Estrada:rebelión Nueva España
Reference number: PATRONATO,217,R.2
Date of creation: 1566
Level of description: Unidad Documental Simple_en
Reference code: ES.41091.AGI//PATRONATO,217,R.2
Scope and Content: Proceso criminal formado en la Audiencia de México contra Alonso de Estrada, preso en México por participar en la rebelión de Nueva España.
Juan Alonso de Estrada (who is supposedly my ancestor) was the son of Tesorero Juan Alonso de Sosa & Doña Ana de Estrada, and grandson of Lope de Sosa & Doña Ynes de Cabrera, and of Alonso de Estrada & Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. In 1566, when he was about 22 years-old, Juan Alonso and his half-brother, Alonso de Cabrera, were swept up in the so-called Martin Cortes conspiracy. Their brother-in-law, Alonso de Avila Alvarado (who was married to their sister, Doña Maria de Sosa) was one of the accused ringleaders of the rebellion; along with his brother, Gil Gonzalez de Avila
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Nice find Manny, but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record. So during Alonso Estrada’s life time he is acknowledged as the king’s illegitimate son, by his own proclamations and by other authors writing at that time. And you can’t forget all of the other details in his life that only a son of the king could get away with. Alonso Estrada lived like royalty and had a high salary that regular treasurers didn’t have. He was protected even though he did not possess extraordinary skills Now his wife and her daughters did possess extraordinary skills, but Alonso Estrada was an #&*363*#* that would have been done away with by many people, not just Hernan Cortez. And it was not just King Ferdinand that protected him, Charles Also protected him. Without this protection he would have suffered great harm. The dozen servants that catered to him hand and foot was
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Rick wrote:
but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record
The two records I posted at the beginning of this thread named Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, aka Juan Fernandez de Estrada, as the father of Alonso de Estrada. The only Luisa de Estrada mentioned in either was the daughter of Alonso de Estrada, who married Jorge de Alvarado.
As for everything else - you’ve mentioned these things several times throughout this thread, but you never name your sources. Please do, so they can be verified independently. For the most part, I am only interested in primary sources, but anything written by historians during Estrada’s lifetime would be welcomed - I just haven’t seen any. Please let me know what they are, and I will locate them.
Thanks!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
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I just wanted to let you know the citation I was referring to was in the inquisition papers that were cited as being the source saying Alonso de Estrada was in fact the result of the union of Luisa and the King are below on my last comment.
I encourage everyone to dig through the archives. The reference to the citation is listed in book it indicates the TOMO. I believe the book is listed with many Universities. One of them should have a copy we can go through it meticulously. The more eyes the better. This will be important when going through the Spanish Ministry archive in which I believe it is located.
Their references should be in their bibliography or on the bottom of the page of the reference. You will need this code to look up the original document.
All the best
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This limpieza and proof of nobility that appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608 is for a great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. Much time has passed and information has been forgotten or intentionally changed. It is not uncommon for a great great grandchild to make an error when naming their great great grandparents. Juan Fernandez Estrada was her great great great grandfather and Luisa Estrada was her great great grandmother.
Juan Fernandez Estrada was an Hidalgo. The Hidalgo was not part of his surname. The Fernandez surname was because his father’s name was Fernando. He and his brother were close confidants of the King of Aragon, and served as ambassadors of Aragon to France and England. Juan’s mother came from the powerful Alvarez De Asturias family that also has royalty in their ancestry a couple of centuries back. Juan is married twice. His first wife is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II. Luisa
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Hi Rick
You provide a lot of information, and in your posts in this thread, cite the pruebas and Mygenes2000. The story is very interesting indeed!
Could you kindly provide a link for Mygenes2000 - or else a list of the sources in that book on which your posts are based, here in this thread?
Regards
Denise
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Mygenes2000 is what I name my yet unpublished book that shows how many of the founding families were related to each other before they crossed the Atlantic Ocean.
In my book I have much more information on Alonso Fernandez Estrada’s ancestors and show how they are closely related to my Villaseñor and Reynoso ancestors that come to Nueva Galicia. The book is a huge undertaking as I connect many of the families before their crossing.
R.A. Ricci
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Hi Rick
Thank you for your prompt response. I appreciate your dedication to your research and I do look forward to reading your book, Mygenes 2000. I also appreciate that you try to put the information in the documents into an historical context. I attempt to do the same with the documents I come across which relate to my family.
In your post of Sun, 2019-01-13 20:34 - ALONSO ESTRADA, you kindly provide 12 pieces of information. Since your book is not yet published, I must ask you for a few specifics on the bits I feel can be relatively easily handled (if you use footnotes or other standard citation system in your book) - sources for the following:
1. that Juan Fernandez de Estrada's first wife, "is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II.”
2. Luisa Estrada as a daughter of Juan and his first wife.
3. that neither of Juan’s two wives is named Luisa - so, what are their names?
4. The surname of Juan’s second wife. You state, “Her surname is not
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Genealogist Manny Diez Hermosillo contributed greatly to my Villaseñor research in Nueva Galicia. His contributions led to many threads that helped further along my research in Spain. Many other genealogists have also contributed to this research.
I compiled much information on the Villaseñor ancestor families in Spain. Mannys contribution to my families Villaseñor ancestral lines contributed to my finding Manny’s Estrada ancestral lines in Spain. Luisa’s mom is a daughter of one of these families. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s wife’s family is well documented by me. There is no question about Juan Fernandez’s first wife, or her ancestry. Luisa’s mom’s family was not Jewish. It was the Estrada y Gutierrez deCavalleria descendants of Catalina and Alonso Estrada that tried to hide their Jewish faith. Luisa’s siblings, nephews and cousins were Catholic, with at least one of them an official of the inquisition, and another becoming a priest. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother had three
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Dear Manny,
I owe you big time for the many times that you have helped me with my research. And this is another great find by you. However, I disagree that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father.
The genealogy that he was the son of The king seemed like a legend to me also. I even bought an original copy of the book that refutes that he was son of the king. Over the years I repeatedly stated that Juan Fernandez De Estrada was his father based on the argument put forward by this book. The problem is that when I researched the issue I discovered that it has some false information. This second genealogy that you found is based on the “ made up family tree “ that tried to hide that his mother was a mistress of the king. Her having an illegitimate child was an embarrassment to her family. Later on the family tried to hide its Jewish origins.
If juan Fernandez De Estrada is proven to be his father then this very old “book” that I have is worth some money. It is an original book and
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Is there a primary source document containing the "mythical" genealogy? Where did it come from?
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Alonso de Estrada