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This forum is reserved for posting of technical questions and answers related to genealogical research. Appropriate topics include discussions re: sources, document formats, paleography, etc.

Access to some of my research via Dropbox

Dropbox Access

After an absence of several years, I am slowly trying to return to genealogy.  (Emphasis on slowly.)  In the meantime I would like to share some research by giving you access to my Dropbox account.  Some of these files will be familiar (the Jaime Holcombe letters that Ophelia Marquez and I compiled in the 1990s;  the San Luis Potosi testament reports; my research of Juan Montanez, Maria de las Ruelas, Galvan de Rojas and others; the Christmas letters to my relatives where I "gifted" ancestors; etc.). There are also a few Family Group Sheets prepared pre-internet. It's a hodgepodge of data that may help someone.  Just click on the link below.

I ask one favor of you.  When you find an error (or two), please let me know.  Thanks,

Mary Lou Montagna

 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/3ca9n3uuvrfvre3o5nh77/AFyduE5sdqyl-fruqx…

Help Reading Document Baut. Mitla, Oaxaca SERNA

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGZ1-9F8H?view=index&c…

Film number #004239424 

a Baptism for My possible Serna of Aguascalientes ancestor .. in the Iglesia San Pablo, Mitla, Oaxaca

Entry  begining on 2nd line 

2nd veinte y Sinco dia de Dec. de mil Setecientos y Setenta 

3rd y dos  Bautize y puse los santo Oleos y Chris-

4th  ma a Manuela hija Lexitima de Fran Co Serna 

Next Page  ( unknown  )  y Maria  F ??? ( unknown )  P. P. Juan Lopes y Josepha de ( ?????? )  

Any help is appreciated. 

 

 

upload

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is there some place i can learn how to use it.. i have been playing around with it.. but i feel perhaps i need to download it and then copy paste to gemini

Also would i need the Pro version of Gemini .. Thanks 

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David,

While the request has already been fulfilled, I came here to add that if you have Gemini active in the same window where the image is, it will transcribe the writing for you. I've been using it for help with documents from 1400 and 1500 and has save me hours! It can transcribe a page in seconds, where the task is all but fruitless for me. 

Here's the result for your situation:

"En la Yglia. Parrochial. de Matatlan en siete dias del mes de Dic.re de mil setecientos y sesenta y dos a.s. Baptize solemnem.te a Lazaro Mariano hijo legitimo de Juan de la Serna, y Magdna Mendes fueron sus Padrinos Juanchin Bapt.a y Maria Manla. a quienes amoneste su oblig.on y espiritual parentesco: todos de naturaleza y vec. de dha Cavec.a y para q. conste lo firmo."

I then asked Gemini to translate it into "modern" English (you can do the same into Spanish):

"In the Parish Church of Matatlán, on the seventh day of the month of December, seventeen sixty-two, I solemnly baptized Lazaro Mariano, the

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"En la iglesia de Santiago Matatlán, en veinticinco días de diciembre de mil setecientos setenta y dos años, bauticé y puse los santos óleos y crisma a Manuela, hija legítima de Francisco Serna...(next page)(In the margin: Manuela)...y María. Fueron los padrinos Juan López y Josefa, a quienes amonesté su obligación y espiritual parentesco; todos son naturales y vecinos de dicha cabecera, y para que conste, firmé. Agustín Tinoco."

New Member

Greetings, 

I began my genealogy journey several years back researching my maternal grandfather's line.  My grandfather's mother (my great-grandmother) is originally from Ciudad Guzman (dob 1874) and had the maiden name of "Aguallo." A dear uncle of mine (now departed) would tell me stories about her maiden name and how it was linked to a small town (Nochistlan).  

During the COVID shutdown I followed the "aguallo" line back to the mid 1750's in Ciudad Guzman (Zapotlan Grande).  I found records (baptisms, marriage and death) on Family Search belonging to the "aguallo" line.  The oldest direct relative I found in Ciudad Guzman was Jose Vizente Ferrer de Aguayo (married in 1779), originally from Nochistlan, per his IM (a kind soul/wikitree moderator found the unindexed IM).  Unfortunately, I hit a wall at the time and could not find any additional documents for Jose Vizente Ferrer (ie a baptism record).  His marriage registry and IM identify one Antonio Mergil/Margil de Aguayo as his

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Don’t give up on the line “Antonio de Aguayo (son of Joseph de Aguayo and Manuela de Aguilar) married to Maria "Camacho Hermocillo" (not Yanez).”

More research is needed on Maria CamachoHermosillo    She may be the same Maria that is named Yañez    More research is needed to find out if they are the same person    In my research I have found many people, especially woman during this time frame, to be using different surnames 


Good luck in your research,

Rick A. Ricci

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Rick,

that thought had occurred to me but surnames are completely different and i didn't want to fall into some sort of confirmation bias.  perhaps i will search a bit more on camacho hermocillo to see if something jumps out.  

thanks for the insight.

Jerry Lopez

 

 

 

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Hello JL,

Welcome to this group! 

I'm a novice to Spanish Colonial genealogy, but I made a couple of reminder notes for myself from the info in your post. If I run into anything in the future that may assist you in your search, I'll reach out. 

Best of luck.

Travis

 

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Travis, 

thanks for the welcoming reply. 

Despite my current lack of advancement on the Aguayo line, it was been a personally rewarding endeavor searching through old records and learning how to read/interpret them.  

 

thanks again,

Jerry Lopez

Spain and the American Revolution

Does anyone in the group have any ancestors that were involved in Spain's role of assisting during the American Revolution?

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While I don’t have a direct ancestor who participated in the American Revolution, in a post from an earlier NR thread, a member revealed that the grandson of one of my ancestors (Bartolome Delgado, of Sierra de Pinos, Zacatecas) did participate. The link to the post can be found here (and includes a link to the poster’s source): https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/comment/30195#comment-30195

His entry says: Juan José Delgado. MPR:G, on 26 Nov 1775, widower of Josefa Leonarda Juarez and son of Juan Manuel Delgado of Sierra de Pinos and Matiana Contreras, married Ma Margarita Sanchez, daughter of Juan Bautista Sanchez and Juana Ma Diez. They [bur?] in in 1781.

That marriage took place in Nueva Ciudad Guerrero, Tamaulipas, just south of Laredo, TX. It doesn’t give any specifics of how he was involved, but the source given does give a list of Spaniards & New Spaniards who fought in the Revolution that can perhaps be helpful to you.

Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Lázaro Martín del Campo - New Information

As many of us have come to realize, the traditional genealogy connecting Lázaro Martín del Campo to Revilla del Campo is likely incorrect. 

Emerging evidence suggests that Bartolomé Martín del Campo and Lázaro Martín del Campo are two distinct individuals with no proven relation. While it was previously claimed that Lázaro was the same Bartolomé baptized in Revilla del Campo in 1605, the chronology is inconsistent. 

As Alfonso Martín del Campo Loza noted in his book "Memoria Documental y Gráfica de mi Apellido Martin del Campo", Lázaro was already established in Teocaltiche by 1618 and was a widower of Isabel Sánchez de Lara by 1623. A child baptized in 1605 could not have been a widower in 1623 with an established presence in Nueva Galicia by 1618. 

Recent findings point toward Herencia as the true origin: 

1) 1608 Record: I previously shared a 1608 record from Herencia showing a Lázaro Martín del Campo and his wife, María Díaz, acting as godparents: https://www.familysearch.org/ark

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Magdalena Gonzalez (Nicolas de Sandoval) and Magdalena de la Besares

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I don’t have them as children of Francisco Gonzalez Martinez cc Magdalena de Lavezares, but if either of them is, it’d be Magdalena Gonzalez cc Nicolas Sandoval, because from the kinship given in the dispensa of Lorenzo Mexia cc Magdalena Santillan, Magdalena de Lavezares cc Geronimo Sandoval was their granddaughter. The dispensa has the betrothed at 4o con 4o (and 4o con 3o in another line), but doesn’t explain the relationship, but from other records, the probable kinship is this:

Bernardino de Isla-1- ? ? ? ?
Juan de Isla-2-Magdalena Lavezares (cc Geronimo Sandoval)
Mariana de Isla-3-Cristobal Sandoval
Lorenzo Mexia-4-Magdalena Santillan

Using the process of elimination, Magdalena’s parents would have to be either Ynes Gonzalez cc Juan Gonz Hidalgo, or Andrea Lavezares cc Juan de la Cruz Martin Bermejo (Diego Gonzalez had a daughter named Magdalena, but she married Antonio Tovar Legazpi, and Juana Gonzalez cc Marcos Gonzalez had no children).

Dispensa, Lorenzo Mexia cc Magdalena Santillan

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In the book Genealogia de Nochistlan… by Jose Luis… it has both Magdalena de la Besares (Jeronimo de Sandoval) and Magdalena Gonzalez (Nicolas de Sandoval) as children of Francisco Gonzalez Martinez and Magdalena de la Besares. I may have missed where in the book it references it, but where is the information that links them as children and not grandchildren of them?

CAPITÁN FRANCISCO TAVERA

I’ve found another Tierras y Aguas folder that’s filled with easter eggs, this one with families from early Lagos de Moreno: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDL-63GW-X?view=explo…

Dated 28 Sep 1674, it’s regarding a dispute between Juana Tavera (widow of Jacinto de Lariz) and Capitan Andres Ramirez de Cueva. To establish their claims, the two had to present land titles and other documentation, so we’re treated to the history of the lands in question, and to the names of all of the people who owned them since the arrival of the Spaniards. There are documents dating back to the founding of Lagos de Moreno - including a copy of the original charter given to Hernando Martel, dated 15 Jan 1563 (image 509). There are also titles that passed through cabildos in 1568 & 1569, which included Lorenzo Alvarez, Luis Lopez, Alonso Macias, Juan Becerra, Toribio Hernandez, and other early notables. Following are some relationships revealed throughout these documents - of interest to

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Hello again, Manny! 

I was adjusting Diego Ysquierdo's birthdate (I guessed him "about 1621" which I know now to be impossible), and decided to check Ana's household in the 1669 Padron of Lagos because I remember seeing a Sanchez noted as living with her. 

After staring at the page for about a minute, I realized thanks to your new information, that almost the entire page deals with Ana's extended family group and the people living on their properties. A real eye opener!

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9K8-KY67

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Manny, that is incredible. 

This new information impacts my tree (Tavera/Ysquierda/Ñagas) so thank you very much for sharing. 

Best,

Travis

Pedro Ortiz de Anda

Reading back through the archives I found a post that states Mr Jaime Holcomb believed Pedro Ortiz de Anda (born c1560) was the natural son of Pedro de Anda Altamirano (c1535-1619). 

He also believed Isabel Ortiz de Anda (cc Pedro Gómez de Portugal), Pedro Ortiz de Anda (cc Ana Ramírez) and Catalina Ortiz de Anda (cc Esteban de Pastrano) were all also natural children (born outside of marriage) of the above Pedro Ortiz de Anda. 

Has there been any research on this family recently that validates or disproves Mr Holcomb's views?

Thank you. 

Travis

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You might already have this one: dated 19 Jul 1565 in Villa de los Lagos, it’s regarding a land grant made by Hernan Martel to Pedro de Anda, his wife, Beatriz de Castañeda, and her sister, Margarita Gomez. Also mentioned is Juan de Zorita, who I believe was Beatriz de Castañeda’s brother (?): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDL-D9XR-T?i=135&cat=…

It starts on Image 134, with their son, Esteban de Anda y Castañeda, selling one of the sitios to Alonso de Torres, on 2 May 1605.

Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo

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Though some of my lines intermarried with the Anda’s, I don’t descend from them, so I haven’t researched them much. But, Pedro de Anda (born ca 1563, so I assume he was the younger) was one of the founders of San Luis Potosi, and he and his brother, Esteban de Anda (ca 1577), appear a lot in the SLP notary archives during those first decades, so I’d suggest you direct some of your attention to those archives. FamilySearch offers that new AI search feature, so you can do filtered searches.

Good luck, and share what you find!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

In reply to by Travis

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Here is a document dated 9 Jan 1606, in which brothers Pedro de Anda and Esteban de Anda start a company involving an estancia de ganado mayor, located in Valle de San Francisco, jurisdiction of SLP.  On the 2nd page, last paragraph, three daughters of Pedro de Anda are named: Catalina, Petrona, and Juana.  
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G58X-S3TP?i=107&wc=MXB…

Daughter Catalina was married to Esteban Pastrana; on 31 Jan 1619, Esteban Pastrana, “Como marido y conjunto que soy de Catalina Ortis de Anda, hija natural de Pedro de Anda mi suegro,” granted power of attorney to Tomas del Rio: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSC6-3V7Y?i=368&cat=37…

I have Pedro de Anda and Esteban de Anda as half-brothers, Pedro being hijo natural of Pedro de Anda and a woman supposedly named Maria Ortiz, and Esteban, legitimate son of Pedro de Anda and Beatriz Gonzalez de Castañeda  - though I don’t have this sourced.

Manny Díez Hermosillo

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Hello Manny,

That is spectacular.

Thank you for sharing. I was also told by word-of-mouth, that Pedro Ortiz de Anda was born from his father's first marriage with María Ortiz. None of it is sourced.

Until today, I only found one document supporting the belief Pedro Ortiz de Anda was son of Pedro de Anda Altamirano (and half brother of Esteban de Anda). Your discovery is stronger evidence and makes mine redundant, but I'd like to share:

 "En veintisiete de marzo [de 1619 años] bauticé a Joseph, hijo de Hernando Medel y de Juana Burgueño, su mujer. Fueron sus padrinos Esteban de Anda y su sobrina Ana Ramirez." (27 Mar 1619 Baptism of José Medel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KW84-K)

Padrinos above are "Esteban de Anda and his niece Ana Ramírez" .. Ana Ramírez wasn't an actual niece of Esteban de Anda (as far as I know), she was wife of his nephew, Pedro Ortiz de Anda (son of his half-brother, Pedro Ortiz de Anda).

Thank you, again, Manny!

Best,

Travis

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Manny, this is a great find which corroborates the information in the post by Guillermo don Teresa Tovar regarding the 'testamento' of Esteban de Pastrana: "Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban."

Other sons of Esteban de Pastrana and Catalina Ortiz de Anda are: Esteban, baptized on 24 June 1622, and Luis, baptized 28 June 1635, both were baptized in Guadalajara.

The other daughters, Petrona and Juana, named in the document of the 'compañía' between brothers Pedro and Esteban, are new to me. Hopefully, research on these sisters will yield some new insight on Pedro de Anda.

I have Isabel Ortiz as daughter

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Hello Manny!

Could this be a candidate for Petrona de Anda?

Cristobal Muñoz de Amaya (Español)

cc Petronila de Anda ("de Nacion Yndia")

1.0 Ana Muñoz de Maya cc Nicolás de Espitia (bap. 1622 in Lagos)

5 Apr 1704 dispensa matrimonial: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6TSJ-D8


Transcription from 1676 Padrón de Santa María de los Lagos:

Rancho de nicolas de espitia

Nicolas de Espitia mes c++ Ana Muñoz mes ++

Blas Ramires mes c++ Mathiana de Anda ++

Ju.o de Anda mes s++

Thereza de Anda mes s++

Christoval muñoz mes s++

Lorenso de Anda mes s++

Ysabel ortiz mes s++

Manuel mes de 10 años +

Feliphe muños mes s++

Nicolas Ramires mes c++ Magdalena Maria [?] ++

Andres muños mes ++

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9K8-KYM7

**Notice: how Ana's children still use the de Anda name of her mother. Because of its prestige? And notice that her daughter is named Ysabel Ortiz above.  In Ysabel's 1680 marriage record, she's called Isabel Ortiz de Espitia. Namesake for Petrona's sister?

https://www

Household of Antonio de Aguirre and the Gomez/de Anda family

UPDATED:

[I deleted most of my original comment. Additional information is now available that makes my original theory untenable.]

Juana Gómez, Joachin Gómez, Ynes Gómez and Gaspar Gómez are all listed in the 1669 Padrón de Santa María de los Lagos as part of the household of Antonio de Aguirre and his wife, Isabel Gómez AKA Ortiz (daughter of Pedro Gómez de Portugal and Isabel Ortiz de Anda):

estancia o casa de Antonio deaguirre
Ysavel Gomez Sumuger - ++
Juana gomez Soltera - ++
Pedro martin casado con - ++
Ynes gomez - ++
Joachin gomez - ++
gaspar gomez - ++
Magdalena Gutierres sumuger - ++

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9K8-KTXV

My family is descended from three of the four (Juana, Gaspar and Joachin), so the question of their identity is important to us. 

I originally proposed some or all of them were Isabel's children by a previous relationship. I was wrong. Newly discovered information now verifies the relationships between Juana, Joachin and Gaspar Gómez, as well as sets

Phrase in death record

Has anyone seen this phrase in a death record before: deja libre de matrimonio a (persons name). I'm curious to why it doesn't say, viudo or fue casado, etc... Does this mean this couple was not married?

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Not necessarily. It was probably just a legal formality, in case the spouse wanted to remarry. Coincidentally, I was just transcribing a marriage investigation that got snagged, because the husband was from Spain, and had been married previously, and he needed to provide proof that he was "libre de matrimonio," and had unfortunately lost a signed affidavit from his home parish, confirming his first wife's death. 

Have you found the couple's marriage record? Another way to see whether they were legitimately married is to look at the baptism/birth records, and see if it says the child was legitimate.

Saludos!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

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Thank you Manny. The husband was married prior (I found that marriage record), but I have not found his first wife's death record just yet, nor his second marriage record. I pinned both dates (death and second marriage) down to a three year span. I found his children with his second wife listed as legitimate as the same with his first wife. I will keep searching for the missing records.

Cynthia