I’m sure you probably know that some IMs for Cienega de Mata during the late 1600s can be found in the Asuncion de Maria parish in Aguascalientes? If not, I see several Luna’s - all of them Indios, including an IM for Don Cristobal HL de Don Cristobal cc Beatriz Ynes. George Fulton indexed those IMs years ago, and uploaded them to the reference files here at NR. The filmrolls have since been rearranged, but the roll numbers remain the same, you’ll just have to go by the dates. You can download the PDFs here: https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18014

Also, Encinillas was historically in the parish of San Matias, Pinos, Zacatecas. While there are records for Indian baptisms dating back to the late 1600s, they are well-indexed and easily found. But the IMs go back to 1650, so try digging around in that film roll. Perhaps there’s a marriage in there, and sometimes you can find ancestors appears as testigos.

I had also indexed sacramental records done in San Matias, 1613-1647, but I just checked them, and I see no Luna’s. But if you want to check, the pdf can be downloaded here: https://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24112

Good luck!

Manny Díez Hermosillo

Joseph,

Sounds like a pretty cool site.   Another one that is not as sophisticated, but works for me is: Transkribus

I have some very old Latin documents from England that are pretty much unreadable to me (from the 1550's).  With Transkribus, you drop your document onto their online folder, and it begins scanning (multiple passes).  When the scans have been completed, it offers you the choice of copying the transcribed document to a .PDF, .DOC, or Clipboard (as plain text).  The document scans are fairly quick, usually within a few minutes.

The thing is, once transcribed, you need to go to another free app, like "Google Translate", and convert the Latin transcription to a language you may need, in my case just plain ole English.  It is hit and miss on accuracy, but for me "something" is better then nothing (in most cases).

I only use the free version (apparently 50 free scans per month), but apparently the paid version can clean these documents up even further.

Hopefully this technology (AI) can continue to advance document interpretation, which is a major block for some researchers (such as myself) when getting back beyond the 1600's.

Lee

Hello Christy,

 You may also look for your dad’s records with the name Buenaventura Gomez.

The surname Martinez of your family was originally Martin del Campo.   Over the generations it was shortened to Martin.  It only recently was changed to Martinez.  Celestino was baptized Celestino Martin Barajas.   And his father’s surname is Martin.   His father is only given the Martinez surname in the death record of Celestino.
 

There are two Demetria with fathers of the same name but the mothers have different names.   The fathers are not the same person as they have different ancestries.
Your Demetria’s mother is named as Maria Genaro Gutierrez. This is your ancestral line   Cañadas is very close to Valle de Guadalupe  

A Ventura Gomez shows up as a three year old in a census in Valle de Guadalupe     His parents are not named in the census which could  indicate that he was either  a visitor during the census, or being raised by friends or family in Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco.

Some of the records from people from el Salto are in , besides Cañadas, Valle de Guadlupe, Tepatitlan, or Jalostotitlan.

Your grandfather’s ancestry can be seen found at https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/landscape/GR6V-QPX

Good luck,

Rick A. Ricci

Diego Romo de Vivar is identified as first cousin to Diego Romo de Arellano and that their uncle is Francisco Rincon Romo.  Through other documents we have identified Francisco del Rincon Romo as the son of Juan Luis del Rincon and Maria Romo.  I have the documents verifying this information.   

”En su testamento, Diego Romo de Arellano afirmó que "cuando vino de los Reinos de Castilla, entró sirviendo a Francisco Rincón, su tío", a quien sirvió “por quince o dieciséis años” y “que pasó y socorrió a su primo Diego Romo de Vivar”, a quien “le prestó un negro que Diego Romo de Vivar vendió a Hernando de Bustillos" (el Capitán Hernando de Bustillos era, en 1634, el dueño de la Hacienda de Canutillo, en la jurisdicción del Real del Parral). El testamento de Diego Romo de Arellano fue otorgado en Tlaltenango el 26 de octubre de 1667, habiendo sido testigos de su otorgamiento los Padres Predicadores Fray Diego Illanes y Fray Pedro Gómez, Vicario. En una actuación realizada el 30 de octubre de 1620, y atestiguando sobre la soltería de Diego Chavero, Diego Romo de Arellano manifestó ser a la sazón vecino de Alfajayuca, provincia de Jilotepec, en el actual estado de Méjico, tratante en ganado cabrío y de yeguas.”

Rick A. Ricci

 

Pedro Rincon y Ortega is identified as a first cousin to Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar.  Francisco Rincon de Vivar is identified as uncle of Diego Romo de Arellano and Capitán Diego Romo de Vivar.  The son of the Capitan, also named  Diego Romo de Vivar, is the one that  identifies Pedro Rincon Ortega as his  “tio”.   Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar and a first cousin, Diego Romo de Arellano, are sons of siblings of their tio Francisco Ricon y Romo de Vivar.

"cuando vino de los Reinos de Castilla, entró sirviendo a Francisco Rincón, su tío", a quien sirvió “por quince o dieciséis años” y “que pasó y socorrió a su primo Diego Romo de Vivar”

Rick A. Ricci

Book: Mygenes2000

By Rick A. Ricci, book Mygenes2000

El testamento de Diego Romo de Arellano fue otorgado en Tlaltenango el 26 de octubre de 1667
 

Hello Erik and Manny,

I went back and reread your statement that:

                   “Diego Pérez (husband of Inés Gómez) was the brother of Juan de Fuentes, who married Inés del Rincón.”. 

 I did not have that information. Another tangle in this family web.  

Thanks again Erik for your excellent work,

and thank you Manny for finding the information that Alonso de Fuentes is a brother of Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar.   It drove me to do more research which added many puzzle pieces.


Rick A. Ricci

Romo lineage from Juan Romo to Pedro Rincon Ortega, uncle of Diego Romo de Vivar:

By Rick A. Ricci, book Mygenes2000

We can take this to mean that Diego Romo de Vivar descends from Juan Luis Rincon and Maria Romo de Vivar. We don’t know if it is through Francisco Rincon y Romo de Vivar or through a sibling.
 

There are many marriages among the family, first, second, and third cousins marrying, so there are many possible parents, or grandparents of Diego Romo de Vivar.  What limits the possibilities is that we know who Diego’s uncle is, Pedro Rincon y Ortega, and who his brother is, Alonso Fuentes.

=======================================================================

===================================================================

Additional clues to research to help find the parents of Diego Romo de Vivar:

1)- Alonso Diaz and Maria Romo are the parents of

2)- Juan Romo who married Maria Diaz (daughter of Juan Alonso El Viejo and Ana Diaz).

3)- Pedro Romo who traveled to new Spain in 1594

 
https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/134529?nm

Here is a record of a Diego Romo crossing the Atlantic Ocean as a criado of his brother Luis Romo Diaz (Daza).   Diego and Luis are the sons of Juan Romo y Ana Díaz de Agüero.  

This Diego Romo could be the same person as Diego Romo de Vivar.

I don’t know if ther parents of Pedro Romo (Juan Romo and Maria Diaz) are the same people as  Juan Romo and Ana Diaz de Aguero who are the parents of Diego Romo and Luis Romo.

There is still a lot more research, reading of documents, to find out exactly how Diego Romo de Vivar is a nephew of Pedro Rincon y Ortega.

Book Mygenes2000

Rick A. Ricci

Saludos Eric,

After researching the subject, I discovered that you were correct in your original statement that Diego Romo de Vivar and Alonso Fuentes are brothers.  After reading documents that identify Juan Luis Ricon’s brother’s genealogical tree I am convinced, and I no longer doubt that they are brothers. 

Juan Fuentes had a first marriage prior to his marriage to Ynes del Rincon

Thanks again for all your work Erik,

Rick A. Ricci

Ejecutoria del pleito litigado por Pedro de Vivar, vecino de Rielves (Toledo), con el concejo de dicha villa, sobre su hidalguía. Archivo de la Real Chancillería de Valladolid  1575
 

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/6678462?nm

   Bienes de difuntos: Diego del Rincón

Diego del Rincón, vecino de Toledo, donde murió con testamento. 1584.

sobre los bienes de Diego del Rincón, vecino de Toledo, donde murió con testamento. Casado con Ana de Luján, vecina de Toledo. Heredero: Juan Rincón, su hijo

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/94599

.

Saludos Erik,

Here is a legal battle between two family members that are in that document that you provided Erik.  
https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/find?nm=&texto=Diego+romo+de+palacios+

Pleito entre Diego Alonso Fernández, vecino de Madrid (Madrid), contra Diego Romo de Palacios, vecino de Fuensalida (Toledo), sobre la tenuta y posesión de los memorías y obras pías que fundó Luis Gómez.

I believe that Luis Gomez is ancestor to Maria Gomez.

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/134529?nm

Here is a record of a Diego Romo crossing the Atlantic Ocean as a criado of his brother Luis Romo Diaz (Daza).   Diego and Luis are the sons of Juan Romo y Ana Díaz de Agüero.

What is interesting about the next line is tha JUan Romo’s father is not surnamed Romo, his mother is the Romo:

On more than one occasion I have found someone surnamed Diaz to later find them with the longer surname Diaz de Vivar.

Alonso Diaz and Maria Romo are the parents of

Juan Romo who married Maria Diaz (daughter of Juan Alonso El Viejo and Ana Diaz).

They are the parents of Pedro Romo who traveled to new Spain in 1594

the area where Pedro Romo is from is part of Rielves , Toledo
 https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/memories/2MS7-VRX

Pedro is most likely a cousin of Diego Romo and Luis Romo.

Hello Erik,

Here are some more documents that may provide more puzzle pieces:

Informaciones genealógicas de Juan García Rosado, natural de San Juan del Puerto (Huelva), pretendiente a familiar del Tribunal de la Inquisición de México, y de su mujer María Romo, natural de Rielves (Toledo)

S supplied title:

Informaciones genealógicas de Juan García Rosado y de María Romo, su mujer

reference number:

INQUISICIÓN,1277,Exp.38

date of formation:

1628

level of description:

Unidad Documental Compuesta_en

reference code:

ES.28079.AHN//INQUISICIÓN,1277,Exp.38

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/1551676?nm

——————-

Pedro Perez 1569

Expediente de concesión de licencia para pasar a Nueva España a favor de Pedro Pérez, vecino de Rielves, que va a México, donde están sus primos Luis del Rincón y Alonso Romo  Mateo Romo

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/438983

————+

Proceso criminal de Alonso Romo, familiar del santo oficio, natural y vecino de Portillo de Toledo, a instacia de Henán González, vecino de Fuensalida, por dar puñaladas

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/3685155/imprimir

supplied title:

Proceso criminal de Alonso Romo

reference number:

INQUISICIÓN,2088,Exp.4

date of formation:

1562

level of description:

Unidad Documental Compuesta_en

reference code:

ES.28079.AHN//INQUISICIÓN,2088,Exp.4

Saludos Erik,

Hello Erik,

I applaud your focus on the De Vivar (de Bibar) family as most other searches have focused primarily on the Romo surname.  And most searches have focused on the name Diego Romo, as the name Diego is repeated often in each family in Spain, and the name Diego Romo de Vivar is repeated in Nueva Galicia. But the name Pedro is also repeatedly found in Spain and Nueva Galicia, which leads me to the following question:

Can you add any information on Pedro de Bibar (de Vivar) and his wife Catalina Romo (daughter of Pedro de Vivar is from Fuensalida that are mentioned in the document you provided?  Is this Pedro de Vivar and Catalina Romo  the same couple that you mentioned earlier. 

Pedro Rincon de Ortega is named as Diego Romo de Vivar’s uncle.   It is most likely that Pedro is a “tio abuelo” as Pedro’s parents are Francisco Rincon de Vivar y Romo and Maria de La Vega. Pedro Rincon’s paternal grandparents are Luis Rincon and Maria Romo. I believe that this Maria Romo the aunt of  Catalina Romo. This is just a guess based on the information on hand.   Catalina Romo is named as a niece of “Maria Romo” and her mother a sister of Maria Romo    I believe that it is possible that Catalina’s father name is de Fuente which would could explain Diego having a brother with the surname de Fuente. Do you have the name of Alonso de La Fuente’s wife to see if they are brothers-in-laws?

This is just an exercise showing how the parts of the puzzle show Pedro Rincon de Ortega as a great uncle of Diego Romo de Vivar:

Pedro Romo cc Maria Gomez (De Vivar) parents of (1a) Maria Romo and (2a) Pedro Romo

Or 

or ?

Here are a couple of other possible  leads: Hernando Romo (hijo de Juan Romo y Catalina Sanchez) married to Elena  (hija  de Juan Roman y Catalina).

Hernando Romo and Elena are the parents of another Catalina Romo. Hernando Romo traveled to the “indias” with his wife and daughter in the early 1500’s, (1513 by himself and again with his wife and daughter in 1515).

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/5531143?nm

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/5448878?nm

Thanks again for all your research,

Rick A. Ricci

In many cases where someone is illegitimate someone in the family tries to hide that fact and makes up a different family connection. Many years ago I shared the following information based on a primary source, a will, that clearly identifies  Pero (Pedro) Gonzalez de Alcocer is his father. Fernando Diaz de Alcocer is the grandfather to Jurado “Diego Diaz de Alcocer”.

 No hay dos Jurado Diego de Alcocers, pero si hay dos Diego de Alcocer. Fernando de Alcocer si tuvo un hijo Diego de Alcocer que murio joven. El padre de Jurado Diego de Alcocer es el Doctor Pero (Pedro) Gonzalez de Alcocer.

I find Diego de Alcocer listed as a son to Fernan Diaz de Alcocer as passing away at a young age, way too young to have left descendants.

Later on when the family all of Fernan’s children are recorded in a document you don’t find Diego’s name there because he had already passed away.    The other Diego Alcocer is from an illegitimate relationship that his son the priest had.

The source where I had picked up my information is Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico in his book Viejas Familias de Alcalá de Henares. My other source was Laura Balletto's citation of the will stating that Diego is Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer’s son and therefore Fernando de Alcocer’s grandchild. According to a will, Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer is his father.

Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer was a priest (Doctor Pedro González de Alcocer, canónigo de la Iglesia Catedral de Sevilla). In this scenario Diego is illegitimate. Real estate deals involve the buyer checking for legal ownership of the seller. Real estate transactions must be written, as oral real estate transactions are not enforceable. Laura Balleto’s citation of the Will shows that chain of ownership from the previous owner, Diego, and how he had acquired it, through an inheritance from his Father Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer who stated in his will that he was leaving it to his son Jurado Diego Alcocer, Our ancestor Diego.
 

Rick A. Ricci
 

Erik, muchas gracias por compartir estas nuevas gran informaciones. !Estoy muy agradecido por el trabajo de Jorge Barba, Manny Diez y de Usted!

Un cordial saludo,

Austin Pérez

Saludos Erik,

When you brought up the issue of saying that you have confirmed brother and not brother in law I immediately thought of a book that I am writing on a famous person whose ancestry has been up for debate for centuries.  

While looking for my ancestors I came across the true ancestry and began researching and writing about his family over 20 years ago.  I had over 200 pages written when someone else wrote a book with a different twist than my ancestry for him.   I was dumbfounded and wondered how all of my research showed a certain ancestry while this other book showed a different ancestry for his mother.  I did even more research and my research confirmed my findings while this other author put out another book where he doubled down on his findings.  And his findings hung on the word “brother”.  It wasn’t until Steven Francisco Hernandez Lopez, a genealogist that I greatly admire, made a mistake in putting a family tree together because a brother in law had been called brother, but more research proved that he in fact was a brother in law. A light bulb went off in my head and that is when I figured out why the other author had put together a different family tree. the other author had made the same error.  That person that he mistakenly had as the mother was the mother of his brother in law, the husband of his sister.   So my research on this figure was confirmed by further research, but it took time and more work to clear up the discrepancy.

So when you say that it is confirmed that he is a brother and not a brother in law, I feel the urge to go back and research the tree some more. I feel that it is possible that Alonso de la Fuente may be the husband of Diego Romo’s sister. 

or Alonso de La Fuente is a half brother to Diego Romo de Vivar Perez.   There is a “Alonso de La Fuente” baptized in Santa María Magdalena, Castrillo-Tejeriego, Valladolid, Castilla y León, España on 28/Oct/1581; son of Alonso de La Fuente and Maria Perez.
Thanks again,

Rick A. Ricci

Thanks for sharing Erik the clarification regarding that baptismal record of Diego.

Diego Romo and Juan Romo are brothers.

Juan Romo is the father of Maria Romo that married Pedro Rico.  (Pedro Rico is the son of Juan Martin Rico and Marina Gomez).

Pedro Rico and Maria Romo are the parents of Juan De Fuentes who married Ynes Fernandez daughter of Isabel Fernandez (Hernandez) and  Pedro Hernandez del Rincon

Juan de Fuentes and Ines del Rincon are the parents of Rafael Rincon 

Going back to Juan Romo’s brother Diego Romo we know that this Diego Romo was also referred to as Diego Romo el Viejo as there was a long string of “Diego Romo”s in the family.  

Diego Romo el Viejo’s son Diego Romo was also known as el moço

Diego Alonso Romo had more children.  In this post I am only identifying two of his sons, Diego Romo el Viejo and Juan Romo. Another son  of Diego Alonso Romo’s also has descent in what is now Los Altos de Jalisco. The reason for only identifying two lines right now is to confirm what Erik Andres Reynoso Marquez stated: that the Romo, Rincon, and Fuentes lines were interconnected.

Here are the names in a table:

One of the Diego Romos in the family line was also referred to as “Diego el Romo” and you can find in “PARES” a document where he is accused by the inquisition of saying some “inappropriate words”.   There are a few other documents in PARES that discuss Diego el Romo.  One of them is about him and his neighbor who coincidently is named Diego Alonso.

Diego el Romo, hijo de Diego García el Romo y de Isabel Álvarez.  They are from the Toledo area. 

Viaje a las India’s : Diego el Romo, hijo de Diego García el Romo y de Isabel Álvarez, vecinos de Illescas; y Julián de Illescas, [hijo] de Diego de Illescas y de Inés Álvarez, vecinos de Illescas.  This illescas is in the Toledo area just like Rielves and Fuensalida.


The quote “inappropriate words” is mine and I use it here to not go into detail here about the accusations against him.
 

The Romo research has an important audience in my immediate family as my mothers maiden name is Romo, and the many Romo cousins in my family tree are very close and keep in touch daily through a WhatsApp chat that connects the family members from all over the world   Some are in Milan Italy, a nephew in France, cousins in Toronto Canada, many cousins in Houston, Texas;  Los Angeles, California, Mexico City, Guadalajara, Jalisco; Alaska, Seattle Washington, Bend Oregon, Tepatitlan, Jalisco, and Jalostotitlan Jalisco, and Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco, and my Tia Tere Romo Barba in Germany with her husband and daughter. They constantly bombard me with questions regarding the Romo line.

Thanks again Erik for sharing your research, I am on the lookout for your next book. 

Rick A. Ricci

P.S.  while researching the Romo line, be on the lookout for the name “Pedro el Romo de Velasco”. This Pedro El Romo de Velasco came over in 1585

I and others have researched primary sources from which we share our findings in WikiTree and in this forum. I understand that errors or incorrect assumptions are made and to that end I welcome and appreciate suggestions for improvements and corrections to information that I provide. I would also like to add that I am indebted to past researchers like Jaime Holcombe who provided the foundation from which we can add to. In regards to the information that you have provided in your post, I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide sources (aside from Jorge Barba's book) that confirm the following:

• Luis López Ramírez is the son of Luis López and Isabel Sánchez.
• Sebastián Ramírez is the son of Andrés López and Isabel Ramírez.
• Ana de la Cueva is the daughter of Pedro García de la Cueva and María Teresa de Sandoval.
• Andrés López, married to Isabel Ramírez, is the son of Álvaro López and Catalina López.
• Catalina López, wife of Álvaro López, is the daughter of Juan López and Inés López.

Un cordial saludo,

Austin Pérez

I doubt that John P. Schmal covered the specifics of your question but I haven't read everything he has written. Might be worth a search

Hola Travis!

I know that the settler colonial records refer only to Indigenous peoples as "Indios" but this is a very offensive term for many Indigenous peoples or personas Indigenas o de pueblos originarios. Also, Indigenous law experts use the capital I for Indigenous. As we know better, we can do better. May I please ask that you refrain from using the term, "Indio" unless you are citing the language listed in a colonial record. As a person of Indigenous descent on my mother's side (Mexico) and my father's said (Cherokee), I would appreciate it if this space doesn't use offensive terminology when speaking about us. Thank you!